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These labs are private businesses. Prosecutors and police can choose which ones to use and they will use, and they'll likely make that choice based on who gives

by mabbo 9y ago

These labs are private businesses. Prosecutors and police can choose which ones to use and they will use, and they'll likely make that choice based on who gives them the results they want rather than the results that are accurate.

Zigurd 9y ago
In Massachusetts, there is a state police crime lab: https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-state-police-crime-laboratory https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-state-police-crime-l... It is a department of the state police, and, obviously enough, is structurally incentivized to make state police performance look good.
- NutriSugar 9y ago
  So there is incentive for corruption with both public and private labs. The solution will require something far more drastic, which I'm not sure the population is willing to support given how many people don't like to use science when it disagrees with their emotional stances. As long as the population wants tough on crime stances, and are willing to dehumanize anyone charged (much less wrongly convicted), then the system is giving them what they want. So how can we change the voters so that they demand a more just legal system?
- xkcd-sucks 9y ago
  The Massachusetts state crime lab is an actual madhouse, and the state government is shockingly corrupt. The following article is one of the more detailed descriptions of how the lab scandals were managed https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/did-falsified-drug-tests-lead-to-wrongful-convictions-w514801 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/did-falsified-drug...
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    >and the state government is shockingly corrupt Shocking to the blind and deaf maybe. If it's under the executive branch it's a dumping ground for political appointees. That's just how it works in MA. More law, more bureaucracy to enforce it, more dumping, more bad outcomes, more laws, more bureaucracy... I've lived in three other states and none of them were as bad.
sigstoat 9y ago
that's largely not what motivates law enforcement's choice (prosecutors aren't generally the ones choosing the testing laboratory; it isn't what motivates them, either); keep in mind that contracts have to go through the accounting/legal department. they care about cost, and turn around time. availability to answer their questions, and some level of treating them with basic respect are up there, too (by "basic respect" i mean avoiding things like "i don't have to explain shit to you, you're a dumb cop and i'm the fancy scientist"). if you're regularly telling the DREs that they're wrong, you're going to have some arguing/explaining to do, but it is unlikely to lose you the contract. the labs that go rogue usually do it for stranger self-motivated reasons than "gotta give the cops the exact results they want"
dragonwriter 9y ago
> These labs are private businesses Yes, these ones are, but the ones that are part of law enforcement offices (particularly, the FBI’s lab) have been even more notorious problems (like the complete junk science of hair comparison) driven by a clear conflict of interest.

by mabbo 9y ago

Zigurd 9y ago

In Massachusetts, there is a state police crime lab: https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-state-police-crime-laboratory https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-state-police-crime-l... It is a department of the state police, and, obviously enough, is structurally incentivized to make state police performance look good.

NutriSugar 9y ago
So there is incentive for corruption with both public and private labs. The solution will require something far more drastic, which I'm not sure the population is willing to support given how many people don't like to use science when it disagrees with their emotional stances. As long as the population wants tough on crime stances, and are willing to dehumanize anyone charged (much less wrongly convicted), then the system is giving them what they want. So how can we change the voters so that they demand a more just legal system?
xkcd-sucks 9y ago
The Massachusetts state crime lab is an actual madhouse, and the state government is shockingly corrupt. The following article is one of the more detailed descriptions of how the lab scandals were managed https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/did-falsified-drug-tests-lead-to-wrongful-convictions-w514801 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/did-falsified-drug...
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  >and the state government is shockingly corrupt Shocking to the blind and deaf maybe. If it's under the executive branch it's a dumping ground for political appointees. That's just how it works in MA. More law, more bureaucracy to enforce it, more dumping, more bad outcomes, more laws, more bureaucracy... I've lived in three other states and none of them were as bad.

sigstoat 9y ago

that's largely not what motivates law enforcement's choice (prosecutors aren't generally the ones choosing the testing laboratory; it isn't what motivates them, either); keep in mind that contracts have to go through the accounting/legal department. they care about cost, and turn around time. availability to answer their questions, and some level of treating them with basic respect are up there, too (by "basic respect" i mean avoiding things like "i don't have to explain shit to you, you're a dumb cop and i'm the fancy scientist"). if you're regularly telling the DREs that they're wrong, you're going to have some arguing/explaining to do, but it is unlikely to lose you the contract. the labs that go rogue usually do it for stranger self-motivated reasons than "gotta give the cops the exact results they want"

dragonwriter 9y ago

> These labs are private businesses Yes, these ones are, but the ones that are part of law enforcement offices (particularly, the FBI’s lab) have been even more notorious problems (like the complete junk science of hair comparison) driven by a clear conflict of interest.