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Stream-of-consciousness - The Investor Class hates pensions? Really? I know a lot of investors. None of them hate pensions. Quite the opposite, actually. And si

Stream-of-consciousness - The Investor Class hates pensions? Really? I know a lot of investors. None of them hate pensions. Quite the opposite, actually. And since when did they become a class of people? I have some friends who are politically-involved in California and quite concerned about public sector unions and the fiscal sustainability of the pension promises that were made. This couldn't be about that, could it? On HN? "...his relentless, well-funded attack has taken every form of political advocacy available. It ranges from campaign contributions to ballot initiatives to model legislation to lobbying to lawsuits to financing academic and judicial conferences...The justification is that these pensions are in crisis. The familiar claim is that states and municipalities face unsustainable pension obligations that will crowd out other government spending and lead to higher taxes. Therefore, traditional pensions, which guarantee retirement payments to workers — leaving states and cities on the hook — must be replaced by 401(k)s, which offer no such guarantee...Though the mainstream media has mostly taken the crisis claim at face value, economists and actuaries debate its extent and even its existence..." Well fuck me. There it is. This isn't an analysis of pension funding. It's not a survey of financial managers. It's political cover-your-ass. Some folks think pension funds are in trouble. We're going to attack and say their claims are politically-motivated. Everything is politics now, including, it seems, figuring out whether you have enough to retire on or not. I know plenty of people who are serious investors who are concerned about public pensions, but it's got jack squat to do with politics. All of the folks I know are huge union supporters. It has to do with the numbers not adding up. We gotta stop this thing we do where we form up into teams and throw crap at one another. It's certainly possible that these two things are unrelated. It's also certainly possible, highly-likely even, that this essay is a desire to politicize something for the purpose of obfuscating the real issues involved. That's a shame, especially for both the citizens and workers who are not expecting a crisis.

phil21 9y ago
> economists and actuaries debate its extent and even its existence I mean... I'd ask for a citation right here. Maybe it's due to my "bubble" but I've never once heard an actuary state that most public pensions are perfectly fine. The opposite is almost universally true with a few notable exceptions. Heck, a high schooler with a napkin and basic math skills can figure out how utterly unsustainable so many of these plans are - and how they've only sustained so far by being what amounts to a pyramid scheme. Illinois in no way is even a sustainable state long-term at this point, almost solely due to insane unfunded pension debt coming due. You can be pro-pension or anti-pension, but either way the math is pretty clear.
- DanielBMarkham 9y ago
  Agreed. I think a much more productive discussion is over the models and standards used to judge the worthiness of pensions, a discussion that has roots going back a long time before the current stuff. None of this has to be political. This is common stuff people have been doing for decades. I am quite curious who these people are and how they defend the statements they make. When friends of your cause tell you that you have a problem and your response is creating villains and presupposing the dangers of various unacceptable solutions that may or may never actually come to pass, you've got two really bad problems instead of just one: the original problem and denial. This type of essay is identifying bad guys and pre-planting rhetorical defenses to be used if anybody gets close to the problem. Attack the messenger! It's much easier to just discredit people than engage with them on the merits. And it's simple enough that anybody can do it. Hell, I'd be interested in a discussion of the various pension models and just the history of how each has fared over the years. You could take all the political fearmongering stuff out and just go with that. I think it'd be fascinating. There are several fact-based, dispassionate essays that could be written on this topic that would be both interesting and informative.

phil21 9y ago

> economists and actuaries debate its extent and even its existence I mean... I'd ask for a citation right here. Maybe it's due to my "bubble" but I've never once heard an actuary state that most public pensions are perfectly fine. The opposite is almost universally true with a few notable exceptions. Heck, a high schooler with a napkin and basic math skills can figure out how utterly unsustainable so many of these plans are - and how they've only sustained so far by being what amounts to a pyramid scheme. Illinois in no way is even a sustainable state long-term at this point, almost solely due to insane unfunded pension debt coming due. You can be pro-pension or anti-pension, but either way the math is pretty clear.

DanielBMarkham 9y ago
Agreed. I think a much more productive discussion is over the models and standards used to judge the worthiness of pensions, a discussion that has roots going back a long time before the current stuff. None of this has to be political. This is common stuff people have been doing for decades. I am quite curious who these people are and how they defend the statements they make. When friends of your cause tell you that you have a problem and your response is creating villains and presupposing the dangers of various unacceptable solutions that may or may never actually come to pass, you've got two really bad problems instead of just one: the original problem and denial. This type of essay is identifying bad guys and pre-planting rhetorical defenses to be used if anybody gets close to the problem. Attack the messenger! It's much easier to just discredit people than engage with them on the merits. And it's simple enough that anybody can do it. Hell, I'd be interested in a discussion of the various pension models and just the history of how each has fared over the years. You could take all the political fearmongering stuff out and just go with that. I think it'd be fascinating. There are several fact-based, dispassionate essays that could be written on this topic that would be both interesting and informative.