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@keefer I happen to work for a big P+C insurance company, doing java integration work on just such an unwieldy set of apps, and I couldn't agree with you more.

by rickd 18y ago

@keefer I happen to work for a big P+C insurance company, doing java integration work on just such an unwieldy set of apps, and I couldn't agree with you more. Development is nearly impossible due to pretty much everything you state in para 2 and 3. I just wanted to get this out there so people might be able to weigh in- you said "hardly anyone smart is working on making them better." First, let me say I completely agree. But what I was hoping for some feedback on is the WHY? I can say, from experience, my company doesn't even TRY to retain the "smart" people. We've been working on a huge, revolutionary change to our internal systems for almost 3 years now, but practically every "smart" person has been smart enough to jump ship. We've lost every senior dev and architecture person to other giant monolithic companies where they get paid to do EXACTLY the same thing. The funny part (to me anyway) is that nobody has even tried to retain those that are leaving. So we just continue to hemorrhage the great talent and the quality on the project goes down down down. I'm also pretty disappointed to see those people who were my friends going to companies that are just as bad as here- only because it's more money (so maybe they weren't that smart after all!) I propose that it's a combination of two factors: 1. smart people are bored doing this type of work and will leave when they perceive a better opportunity (I'm going to as well in the next few weeks). 2. Companies don't understand that getting the "rockstar" talent is important, don't know how to recognize it when they have it, and don't know how to keep it when they DO find it. I think this was touched on pretty well in a few previous posts (I'll try to find the links and stick them on here in a bit). You don't happen to work for a certain San Mateo based software company, do you?

akeefer 18y ago
Indeed, I work for the company you're thinking of (check out our development blog and you'll see me as the author of about 70% of the posts). Getting good people to work for a software company writing enterprise software is hard enough, due to factors I've mentioned elsewhere (it's low profile, you're building systems you yourself wouldn't need or use, the deployment model is rough). Getting good people to work doing software stuff at a non-software company is much harder, I'd say. Even if you had great working conditions and got to use innovative processes and technology to do things, which not many non-software companies do, you're still going to get hit the "talent attracts talent" problem. Talented people want to work with other talented people; otherwise it's a vicious cycle where the best people leave and cause the rest of the good people to leave, and new good people that come in don't want to stick around. The only real way to combat it is to start with a bunch of talented people and then keep your standards high; otherwise, the feedback loop spins you down towards mediocrity in a hurry.
- rickd 18y ago
  cool- good to know ;) I'm in Chicago doing integration with some of the brightest minds I've met recently- my compliments to you guys for being able to get and retain those people, even in the often crushing world we're working in over here. Doing software at a non-software company certainly has been a humbling experience. The spindown toward mediocrity has certainly been a valuable lesson in how (not to) manage that I'll always keep in mind.

by rickd 18y ago

akeefer 18y ago

Indeed, I work for the company you're thinking of (check out our development blog and you'll see me as the author of about 70% of the posts). Getting good people to work for a software company writing enterprise software is hard enough, due to factors I've mentioned elsewhere (it's low profile, you're building systems you yourself wouldn't need or use, the deployment model is rough). Getting good people to work doing software stuff at a non-software company is much harder, I'd say. Even if you had great working conditions and got to use innovative processes and technology to do things, which not many non-software companies do, you're still going to get hit the "talent attracts talent" problem. Talented people want to work with other talented people; otherwise it's a vicious cycle where the best people leave and cause the rest of the good people to leave, and new good people that come in don't want to stick around. The only real way to combat it is to start with a bunch of talented people and then keep your standards high; otherwise, the feedback loop spins you down towards mediocrity in a hurry.

rickd 18y ago
cool- good to know ;) I'm in Chicago doing integration with some of the brightest minds I've met recently- my compliments to you guys for being able to get and retain those people, even in the often crushing world we're working in over here. Doing software at a non-software company certainly has been a humbling experience. The spindown toward mediocrity has certainly been a valuable lesson in how (not to) manage that I'll always keep in mind.