7 ms·

To my knowledge, organic farming employs just as much, if not more, pesticide and fertilizer. If this is true, I would love to see your source. I buy a lot of

by afpx 9y ago

To my knowledge, organic farming employs just as much, if not more, pesticide and fertilizer. If this is true, I would love to see your source. I buy a lot of organic because I expect it to have less pesticide (and other potentially 'bad' things). And, if that's not the case, I will change my buying habits. I do understand that there is a fraud issue in organics. I have seen examples of farmers owning organic certified farms and then buying produce from the distribution market to resell as organic. Also, I have seen examples of people doing similar things at farmers markets.

orclev 9y ago
In most places in order to qualify as "organic" they're only allowed to use a certain subset of pesticides (generally ones derived from natural sources such as bugs or other plants). They aren't pesticide free, and there's no requirement on the quantities of pesticides used, only the kinds of pesticide. There's also no requirements around fertilizer used as far as I'm aware. Like most of the health buzzword fads, organic doesn't really mean what most people think it means, and in truth what it means is highly variable depending on who's using the term.
- bobthechef 9y ago
  Certainly, the term "organic" is abused, much like the term "natural" (which also doesn't mean what people think it means). However, surely the kind of pesticide you use matters. And while nothing in principle guarantees that naturally-sourced pesticides are guaranteed to be non-toxic (except the pests in question, etc), the ones that are generally used[0] are undoubtably safer than "conventional" pesticides. [0] http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xerces-organic-approved-pesticides-factsheet.pdf http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xerces-orga...
  - jasallen 9y ago
    "Ubdoubtably"... because... Well because by definition we don't doubt articles of faith right?
  - toasterlovin 9y ago
    It's the dose, not the substance, that makes the poison.
    - gowld 9y ago
      The substance determines the dose that makes the poison.
- afpx 9y ago
  After reading through USDA certification and compliance material, I do see limitations on what chemicals can be used. Approved chemicals may be allowed in some cases, but the producer must have a plan that limits the use of them and have a documented multi-step process to ensure that they are only used as a last resort. Plus, they must have detailed documentation available when and if they were used. Here’s the list of allowed chemicals. It’s a short list. And, I’m ok with more being used, since most look harmless (e.g. ethanol, lye). http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f10... Organic seems good to me.
calvinbhai 9y ago
As a price and 'fresher/tastier veggie' conscious buyer, I'm not a strong pro/anti organic consumer.But my belief (no sources) is that organic farming using organic pesticide and organic fertilizer, is legit organic.
marcoperaza 9y ago
Organic just means that that the pesticides and fertilizers are organic as opposed to inorganic. So while a nonorganic farm will fertilize with a mixture of nitrogen/phosphorus/potassium compounds (scary-sounding "chemicals"), an organic farm will fertilize with organic (previously/currently living) material that contains high levels of those chemicals.
- orclev 9y ago
  That's not what organic means. Technically organic can mean derived from something that is/was living, but it can also mean anything that contains hydrocarbons. Similarly inorganic can mean either something not contained within anything that is/was living (which honestly with how varied life is doesn't cover much), or else something not containing carbon. That however is the actual definition of organic as opposed to how it's used in marketing material. When talking about marketing, organic just means that a particular subset of approved pesticides and possibly fertilizers, was used in growing the produce. It has no particular meaning beyond that when used as a marketing term. In particular what pesticides are or are not approved is at the discretion of the organization providing the organic certification, so depending on where you are and what group is certifying a product as organic will determine what was used in growing it.
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    Just to clarify, I was referring to the meaning of “organic” specifically in “organic food”. The way the regulations have defined it is “grown with only non-synthetic or exempted synthesized fertilizers/pesticides/etc.” This is a totally different meaning than “organic” in “organic chemistry” or “organic compounds.”
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    I don't think 'organic' in "organic food" includes synthesized "organic compounds".
    - kokey 9y ago
      It doesn't, but it does make it fun to say things like kerosene and plastic are organic.
chiph 9y ago
There's "FDA Organic" which meets the government standards (which are somewhat weak) and then "Real Organic" from farmers who hold themselves to the original meaning of being pesticide and GMO-free. The problem is that as a shopper, you can't tell the difference, unless you sign up with a CSA and get to know your food supplier personally.
- gbrown 9y ago
  Well put.
  - SlowBro 9y ago
    There's another way to tell: Switch to organic for the "dirty dozen" fruits and veggies[1] for three weeks. Then try conventional again. In my own experience I couldn't tolerate conventional anymore, and the difference is more than placebic: Headaches and yuck feeling. Prove it for yourself. [1]https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty_dozen_list.php https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty_dozen_list.php Also in my experience, organic tastes WAY better. For example I never liked the taste of conventional celery; some bitter aftertaste (pesticide residue?) and just bland. But organic celery really pops, with no aftertaste. Baby carrots are noticeably tastier as well. The difference is so stark I think I could validate these on a double-blind test any day.
    - perseusprime11 9y ago
      When I eat Non organic beetroot, it just feels like I am eating some pesticides. Same with non-organic corn. Try keeping in this mind when you eat these vegetables next time and I am sure you will catch the aftertaste.
      - slavik81 9y ago
        If they're thinking about pesticides and their taste while eating, it might be hard to seperate the thought from the reality. Like, thinking about maggots while eating your rice. I'm sure your rice doesn't contain maggots, but do you really feel like eating rice right now? Try a double-blind test and ask a series of questions. Some of the questions about taste should be the things you're looking for. Others should be irrelevant, just to set a baseline. Perceptions of taste are very subjective and easily influenced. Experimental rigour is necessary to mitigate that.
gascan 9y ago
Organic allows pesticides- but the list of approved pesticides is full of things like ethanol and soap. It passes the sniff test that a farmer controlling pests with ethanol might use more than a farmer using, e.g. neonicotinoids. As for fertilizer, I wonder if compost is considered fertilizer. I use lots of compost on my garden.
sbenitoj 9y ago
I still believe it’s worth buying organic, here is a good article summarizing studies on using baking soda to remove pesticides from fruits and vegetables, and a key quote from the article: “Even with bicarbonate, buying organic may still be worth it! One thing this article should not be abused is as evidence in an argument against buying organic. Yes, you can reduce the pesticide load on the peel of your favorite produce to almost zero and yes, even the latest (highly pro-organic) review of the literature highlights that pesticides are where the major differences are, but you're (a) still left with the pesticides beneath the skin and will (b) not benefit from the other potential benefits Tiziano Gomiero highlights in his latest paper in Applied Soil Ecology (see Figure 4).” http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/10/nahco3-aka-baking-soda-washes-all.html?m=1 http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/10/nahco3-aka-baking-so...
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
The reality is that you don't know for sure. 'Good' organic growing practices are perfectly safe. They'll minimize pesticide application, and ensure they do it at the correct times, i.e. away from harvest time. They'll apply Bt toxin (yes, the same stuff in the GMOs, just exogenously applied) and neem oil, as well as some soaps with potassium salts. There are some 'dangerous' organic pesticides. As far as I know Rotenone isn't used anymore, but it is dangerous to humans and was once employed as an organic pesticide. Copper sulfate is a fairly big issue. It's definitely toxic to humans and has been found to accumulate in soils. It's a fairly big deal in Napa and the vineyards have moved away from it because of the accumulation. This copper definitely makes it's way to consumers, so the question is how much, and how much is too much? This is an interesting anecdote about brewing beer with fruit, and needing to pay attention to copper levels. http://scottjanish.com/peaches-and-quinoa-sour/ http://scottjanish.com/peaches-and-quinoa-sour/ ______ Ultimately, at the scale of the modern organic industry, you're not always going to get good stuff. There are certainly potential dangers, just as there are with conventional agriculture. I would contend that both are perfectly safe when done appropriately.
- tropo 9y ago
  Copper is a required micronutrient. You need copper. Copper sulfate used to be used to induce vomiting. It turned out to be more toxic then we'd like in that usage... but that usage was feeding people spoonfuls of it!

by afpx 9y ago

orclev 9y ago

In most places in order to qualify as "organic" they're only allowed to use a certain subset of pesticides (generally ones derived from natural sources such as bugs or other plants). They aren't pesticide free, and there's no requirement on the quantities of pesticides used, only the kinds of pesticide. There's also no requirements around fertilizer used as far as I'm aware. Like most of the health buzzword fads, organic doesn't really mean what most people think it means, and in truth what it means is highly variable depending on who's using the term.

bobthechef 9y ago
Certainly, the term "organic" is abused, much like the term "natural" (which also doesn't mean what people think it means). However, surely the kind of pesticide you use matters. And while nothing in principle guarantees that naturally-sourced pesticides are guaranteed to be non-toxic (except the pests in question, etc), the ones that are generally used[0] are undoubtably safer than "conventional" pesticides. [0] http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xerces-organic-approved-pesticides-factsheet.pdf http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xerces-orga...
- jasallen 9y ago
  "Ubdoubtably"... because... Well because by definition we don't doubt articles of faith right?
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  It's the dose, not the substance, that makes the poison.
  - gowld 9y ago
    The substance determines the dose that makes the poison.
afpx 9y ago
After reading through USDA certification and compliance material, I do see limitations on what chemicals can be used. Approved chemicals may be allowed in some cases, but the producer must have a plan that limits the use of them and have a documented multi-step process to ensure that they are only used as a last resort. Plus, they must have detailed documentation available when and if they were used. Here’s the list of allowed chemicals. It’s a short list. And, I’m ok with more being used, since most look harmless (e.g. ethanol, lye). http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f10... Organic seems good to me.

calvinbhai 9y ago

As a price and 'fresher/tastier veggie' conscious buyer, I'm not a strong pro/anti organic consumer.But my belief (no sources) is that organic farming using organic pesticide and organic fertilizer, is legit organic.

marcoperaza 9y ago

Organic just means that that the pesticides and fertilizers are organic as opposed to inorganic. So while a nonorganic farm will fertilize with a mixture of nitrogen/phosphorus/potassium compounds (scary-sounding "chemicals"), an organic farm will fertilize with organic (previously/currently living) material that contains high levels of those chemicals.

orclev 9y ago
That's not what organic means. Technically organic can mean derived from something that is/was living, but it can also mean anything that contains hydrocarbons. Similarly inorganic can mean either something not contained within anything that is/was living (which honestly with how varied life is doesn't cover much), or else something not containing carbon. That however is the actual definition of organic as opposed to how it's used in marketing material. When talking about marketing, organic just means that a particular subset of approved pesticides and possibly fertilizers, was used in growing the produce. It has no particular meaning beyond that when used as a marketing term. In particular what pesticides are or are not approved is at the discretion of the organization providing the organic certification, so depending on where you are and what group is certifying a product as organic will determine what was used in growing it.
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  Just to clarify, I was referring to the meaning of “organic” specifically in “organic food”. The way the regulations have defined it is “grown with only non-synthetic or exempted synthesized fertilizers/pesticides/etc.” This is a totally different meaning than “organic” in “organic chemistry” or “organic compounds.”
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  I don't think 'organic' in "organic food" includes synthesized "organic compounds".
  - kokey 9y ago
    It doesn't, but it does make it fun to say things like kerosene and plastic are organic.

chiph 9y ago

There's "FDA Organic" which meets the government standards (which are somewhat weak) and then "Real Organic" from farmers who hold themselves to the original meaning of being pesticide and GMO-free. The problem is that as a shopper, you can't tell the difference, unless you sign up with a CSA and get to know your food supplier personally.

gbrown 9y ago
Well put.
- SlowBro 9y ago
  There's another way to tell: Switch to organic for the "dirty dozen" fruits and veggies[1] for three weeks. Then try conventional again. In my own experience I couldn't tolerate conventional anymore, and the difference is more than placebic: Headaches and yuck feeling. Prove it for yourself. [1]https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty_dozen_list.php https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty_dozen_list.php Also in my experience, organic tastes WAY better. For example I never liked the taste of conventional celery; some bitter aftertaste (pesticide residue?) and just bland. But organic celery really pops, with no aftertaste. Baby carrots are noticeably tastier as well. The difference is so stark I think I could validate these on a double-blind test any day.
  - perseusprime11 9y ago
    When I eat Non organic beetroot, it just feels like I am eating some pesticides. Same with non-organic corn. Try keeping in this mind when you eat these vegetables next time and I am sure you will catch the aftertaste.
    - slavik81 9y ago
      If they're thinking about pesticides and their taste while eating, it might be hard to seperate the thought from the reality. Like, thinking about maggots while eating your rice. I'm sure your rice doesn't contain maggots, but do you really feel like eating rice right now? Try a double-blind test and ask a series of questions. Some of the questions about taste should be the things you're looking for. Others should be irrelevant, just to set a baseline. Perceptions of taste are very subjective and easily influenced. Experimental rigour is necessary to mitigate that.

gascan 9y ago

Organic allows pesticides- but the list of approved pesticides is full of things like ethanol and soap. It passes the sniff test that a farmer controlling pests with ethanol might use more than a farmer using, e.g. neonicotinoids. As for fertilizer, I wonder if compost is considered fertilizer. I use lots of compost on my garden.

sbenitoj 9y ago

I still believe it’s worth buying organic, here is a good article summarizing studies on using baking soda to remove pesticides from fruits and vegetables, and a key quote from the article: “Even with bicarbonate, buying organic may still be worth it! One thing this article should not be abused is as evidence in an argument against buying organic. Yes, you can reduce the pesticide load on the peel of your favorite produce to almost zero and yes, even the latest (highly pro-organic) review of the literature highlights that pesticides are where the major differences are, but you're (a) still left with the pesticides beneath the skin and will (b) not benefit from the other potential benefits Tiziano Gomiero highlights in his latest paper in Applied Soil Ecology (see Figure 4).” http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/10/nahco3-aka-baking-soda-washes-all.html?m=1 http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/10/nahco3-aka-baking-so...

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago

The reality is that you don't know for sure. 'Good' organic growing practices are perfectly safe. They'll minimize pesticide application, and ensure they do it at the correct times, i.e. away from harvest time. They'll apply Bt toxin (yes, the same stuff in the GMOs, just exogenously applied) and neem oil, as well as some soaps with potassium salts. There are some 'dangerous' organic pesticides. As far as I know Rotenone isn't used anymore, but it is dangerous to humans and was once employed as an organic pesticide. Copper sulfate is a fairly big issue. It's definitely toxic to humans and has been found to accumulate in soils. It's a fairly big deal in Napa and the vineyards have moved away from it because of the accumulation. This copper definitely makes it's way to consumers, so the question is how much, and how much is too much? This is an interesting anecdote about brewing beer with fruit, and needing to pay attention to copper levels. http://scottjanish.com/peaches-and-quinoa-sour/ http://scottjanish.com/peaches-and-quinoa-sour/ ______ Ultimately, at the scale of the modern organic industry, you're not always going to get good stuff. There are certainly potential dangers, just as there are with conventional agriculture. I would contend that both are perfectly safe when done appropriately.

tropo 9y ago
Copper is a required micronutrient. You need copper. Copper sulfate used to be used to induce vomiting. It turned out to be more toxic then we'd like in that usage... but that usage was feeding people spoonfuls of it!