6 ms·

I'm sorry, but every time I read shit like this I have to wonder if I'm reading from some big pharma social media bot. Concerta doesn't magically give you atte

I'm sorry, but every time I read shit like this I have to wonder if I'm reading from some big pharma social media bot. Concerta doesn't magically give you attention abilities you didn't have before. It's a nervous system stimulant. It makes you neurotic, trapped in your own head. Maybe this makes it easier for some people to focus, but I have enough experience with it to explain why. It forces your attention from the world around you to your own mind. You will be more physically still and "studious", only because you are mentally struggling more. It makes you feel sick. Food seems abhorrent. You will eat a small fraction of what other kids your age eat, you will be below the 99th percentile in height and weight for your age and you will stay that way for the rest of your life. You will be paranoid and anxious, more than ever before the meds. When things are illogical, when you see other people make bad decisions that seem so simple to you, you will be ANGRY. You will be inhumanly smart, but you will be inhuman.

huffmsa 9y ago
Here's where anecdotes run into trouble. I experience mostly the opposite. I no longer need to lock myself away from the world in order to focus. I can have a single, main thread of thought and focus and allocate other threads for dealing with external information. I've always been good at synthesizing 5-6 bits at a time (smaller than average working memory), but now I can perform in the 7-9 bit range. I can start the alphabet from any point, without relying on my chunking heuristics from childhood. The food, yes, the frustrations with illogical decisions, yes. I'd never recommend the drugs to a child, just run them outside until they wear out, but for adults who have trouble keeping multiple plates spinning; yes, use science to overcome your random genealogical assignment.
- manjushri 9y ago
  >yes, use science to overcome your random genealogical assignment. There is no proof that social disorders like ADHD/ADD are genetically deterministic. Which is why the diagnosis relies solely on social observations rather than biological tests. That is of course not to say that drugs can't enhance desired brain functions.
  - EamonnMR 9y ago
    Well, there are some possible genes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854824/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854824/
    - manjushri 9y ago
      From your source: >Finally, one of the key goals of genetic studies of ADHD is to understand its aetiology and mechanisms. The challenge undoubtedly will not only be in identifying risk factors but more importantly testing causal mechanisms. Again, there is no proof, only hypothesis. This is in stark contrast with actual biological pathologies which have proven genetic causes, such as sickle cell anemia.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Every person who takes amphetamines will get many positive effects. Increased cognitive ability, increased physical ability, decreased appetite, etc. They are stimulants. So it doesn't mean much when you say they help you - they help everyone. That's why universities are rife with the stuff; amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs. The whole thing bubbles down to the drawbacks of any hard drug -- addiction, physical dependence, side effects, and rebound effect from physical dependence. Psychological dependence, poor discipline due to not having to exercise it as much. I guess HN is with the "carry a bag with a bunch of drugs. drugs have desirable effects." Need to fall asleep but you can't because you are _bad_ at it? Pop some benzos. Need to wake up, but you feel sluggish and hungover? Pop some coke or amphetamines. Toe hurts because you stubbed it? Pop some opiates. Lacking creativity? Pop some ketamine, lsd, or smoke some weed. Etc etc. No one is saying amphetamines aren't effective. They are a hard drug. Drugs as a crutch, are bad, mmkay?
- goldenkey 9y ago
  So your cognitive abilities and inclination to do hard things is increased by a performance enhancing stimulant? Tell me more about how great narcotics are because they have desirable effects. Narcotics aren't bad lifestyle choices because of their desired effects. Its the side effects, physical and mental dependence, learned habitual reliance on a chemical crutch that makes them bad or worse choices than natural self improvement. Motivation isnt some mystical beast that some people are born with and others aren't. It takes continual trials to gain the endurance necessary to do hard, unmotivated work.
watwut 9y ago
What he described does not sound like being inhumanly smart. It sounds like becoming a bit more like the rest of us - able to focus long enough to read question on test. That is not inhuman, that is bare minimum.
- huffmsa 9y ago
  I had a tendency of actually falling asleep about halfway through tests in highschool, almost without fail. I simply couldn't keep my mind focused for that 75-90 minute window of repetition. Did fine results/ scores wise. Only just now realizing that the behavior was probably a sign of an attention issue.
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    Its called being human. There is nothing wrong with you. Attention isn't a given, it is earned by being interested in what you are doing. People who pay attention to everything, even the most boring drivel, are usually uninspired prudes. There's nothing wrong with being bored and unfocused by unengaging content. That is actually how the brain's reward system prioritizes tasks.
    - BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
      > People who pay attention to everything, even the most boring drivel, are usually uninspired prudes. I see irony in calling someone else uninspired for being more attentive, and I eagerly await the publication of your well-founded study on the subject of demarcating things that are objectively and universally worth ignoring.
      - goldenkey 9y ago
        Someone else? I said people. There is no reason to pay attention to everything in this world. In an ultra connected society, limiting ones' attention span is an important skill. Being obedient is common in those that are hyper vigilant about their perceived performance. These are the students that get straight As then commit suicide.
Chriky 9y ago
Am I missing something... what's wrong with being below the 99th percentile...?
- uptown 9y ago
  You'll be the shortest 1% on the planet due to non-natural factors.
  - ynniv 9y ago
    Chriky is confused because "percentile" has a specific meaning, and "below the 99th percentile" means everyone except the top 1%. The GP meant to say "lower than 99%", which is the 1st percentile.
    - BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
      An assertion that ADHD medication causes first percentile height/weight is also terribly absurd.
      - Chriky 9y ago
        Yeah... especially as it's apparently given to significantly more than 1% of children!
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
arkades 9y ago
I think my posting history here is sufficient to suggest that I’m not a pharma not. Allow me to throw in, then: Individual experiences vary. Patients have reported experiences like what both of you describe, though the reality tends to be a lot more middle of the road than that. I’ve required such medications myself, and my experience was much more on the positive side, though not as extreme.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- oligopoly 9y ago
  One thing to remember is people who get treated and are managing well are less likely voicing their opinions and just going about their lives.
  - hnuser1234 9y ago
    No they definitely go out of their way to sing praises for pushing this shit on unsuspecting kids who have no idea what they're getting into, while telling them it'll only make things better.
tuespetre 9y ago
Hmm. I am a real human male (beep boop) who takes another stimulant (Vyvanse) and I beg to differ.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Vyvanse is just a prodrug that metabolizes into the shittier enantiomer of amphetamine, L-amphetamine.
spiralx 9y ago
> I'm sorry, but every time I read shit like this I have to wonder if I'm reading from some big pharma social media bot. Assuming the worst of posters is definitely against the site rules, and just rude in general. As someone who takes Equasym - the same as Concerta except the different release cycle - I can't recognise anything in your post as being what I've experienced, nor does it match anyone else I know that also uses the same medication. Your anger certainly seems misplaced to me, but severe enough that you should probably seek help for it. Hope you manage to move on in life.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Just admit that the drugs are simple stimulants.. not complex in their action. Amphetamines do not change personality or the brains normal function - any change is behaviorally due to the stimulant nature. Many antidepressants are so complex we still don't know their chemical pathways in the brain - this isn't the case for SPEED. Now that we are on the same page, we can talk about whether a zippity bee bop drug is advisable to give to those that lack discipline for doing hard and laborious mental and physical tasks. The truth is that these drugs arent the antichrist but they sure as hell arent meant to be taken daily. They should be treated with respect.
commandlinefan 9y ago
It's so hard to tell, honestly. I'm a programmer - I sit in front of a computer and sling code all day long. Around 3 PM or so, after about 6 hours of reading technical documentation, stepping through breakpoints, mocking up proposed designs and figuring out which data structures go with which problems, I start to feel so worn down that I just can't concentrate any more. I take a mental "rest" (and go on here, for example), but I don't know if that makes me a lazy slacker, or just a normal human being who's been trying to concentrate (in a ridiculously noisy open bullpen) for longer than humans were meant to. There's an interesting blog written by a practicing psychiatrist (which, as blogs go, is interesting because it's interesting but also because it's one of the few blogs not written by a computer programmer or angsty teenager) where he talks about his role as the "gatekeeper of Adderall": http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mor... he says that professionals like computer programmers and accountants come to him seeking Adderall so that they can concentrate enough to get their jobs done the way we normally associate opioid addicts looking for pain medication. Do I drop off after a few hours because I'm wrong in the head, or because I'm just human?
BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
> I'm sorry, but every time I read shit like this I'm sorry that you think another person's life experiences are shit. > I have to wonder if I'm reading from some big pharma social media bot. It's very strange to hear this coming from an account created 15 days ago with a generic name and scant comment history. > It makes you neurotic, trapped in your own head...you...you...you... I would like to be the first totally-a-human person to welcome you to the real world where your personal feelings aren't universal truths.

huffmsa 9y ago

Here's where anecdotes run into trouble. I experience mostly the opposite. I no longer need to lock myself away from the world in order to focus. I can have a single, main thread of thought and focus and allocate other threads for dealing with external information. I've always been good at synthesizing 5-6 bits at a time (smaller than average working memory), but now I can perform in the 7-9 bit range. I can start the alphabet from any point, without relying on my chunking heuristics from childhood. The food, yes, the frustrations with illogical decisions, yes. I'd never recommend the drugs to a child, just run them outside until they wear out, but for adults who have trouble keeping multiple plates spinning; yes, use science to overcome your random genealogical assignment.

manjushri 9y ago
>yes, use science to overcome your random genealogical assignment. There is no proof that social disorders like ADHD/ADD are genetically deterministic. Which is why the diagnosis relies solely on social observations rather than biological tests. That is of course not to say that drugs can't enhance desired brain functions.
- EamonnMR 9y ago
  Well, there are some possible genes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854824/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854824/
  - manjushri 9y ago
    From your source: >Finally, one of the key goals of genetic studies of ADHD is to understand its aetiology and mechanisms. The challenge undoubtedly will not only be in identifying risk factors but more importantly testing causal mechanisms. Again, there is no proof, only hypothesis. This is in stark contrast with actual biological pathologies which have proven genetic causes, such as sickle cell anemia.
goldenkey 9y ago
Every person who takes amphetamines will get many positive effects. Increased cognitive ability, increased physical ability, decreased appetite, etc. They are stimulants. So it doesn't mean much when you say they help you - they help everyone. That's why universities are rife with the stuff; amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs. The whole thing bubbles down to the drawbacks of any hard drug -- addiction, physical dependence, side effects, and rebound effect from physical dependence. Psychological dependence, poor discipline due to not having to exercise it as much. I guess HN is with the "carry a bag with a bunch of drugs. drugs have desirable effects." Need to fall asleep but you can't because you are _bad_ at it? Pop some benzos. Need to wake up, but you feel sluggish and hungover? Pop some coke or amphetamines. Toe hurts because you stubbed it? Pop some opiates. Lacking creativity? Pop some ketamine, lsd, or smoke some weed. Etc etc. No one is saying amphetamines aren't effective. They are a hard drug. Drugs as a crutch, are bad, mmkay?
goldenkey 9y ago
So your cognitive abilities and inclination to do hard things is increased by a performance enhancing stimulant? Tell me more about how great narcotics are because they have desirable effects. Narcotics aren't bad lifestyle choices because of their desired effects. Its the side effects, physical and mental dependence, learned habitual reliance on a chemical crutch that makes them bad or worse choices than natural self improvement. Motivation isnt some mystical beast that some people are born with and others aren't. It takes continual trials to gain the endurance necessary to do hard, unmotivated work.

watwut 9y ago

What he described does not sound like being inhumanly smart. It sounds like becoming a bit more like the rest of us - able to focus long enough to read question on test. That is not inhuman, that is bare minimum.

huffmsa 9y ago
I had a tendency of actually falling asleep about halfway through tests in highschool, almost without fail. I simply couldn't keep my mind focused for that 75-90 minute window of repetition. Did fine results/ scores wise. Only just now realizing that the behavior was probably a sign of an attention issue.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Its called being human. There is nothing wrong with you. Attention isn't a given, it is earned by being interested in what you are doing. People who pay attention to everything, even the most boring drivel, are usually uninspired prudes. There's nothing wrong with being bored and unfocused by unengaging content. That is actually how the brain's reward system prioritizes tasks.
  - BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
    > People who pay attention to everything, even the most boring drivel, are usually uninspired prudes. I see irony in calling someone else uninspired for being more attentive, and I eagerly await the publication of your well-founded study on the subject of demarcating things that are objectively and universally worth ignoring.
    - goldenkey 9y ago
      Someone else? I said people. There is no reason to pay attention to everything in this world. In an ultra connected society, limiting ones' attention span is an important skill. Being obedient is common in those that are hyper vigilant about their perceived performance. These are the students that get straight As then commit suicide.

Chriky 9y ago

Am I missing something... what's wrong with being below the 99th percentile...?

uptown 9y ago
You'll be the shortest 1% on the planet due to non-natural factors.
- ynniv 9y ago
  Chriky is confused because "percentile" has a specific meaning, and "below the 99th percentile" means everyone except the top 1%. The GP meant to say "lower than 99%", which is the 1st percentile.
  - BugsJustFindMe 9y ago
    An assertion that ADHD medication causes first percentile height/weight is also terribly absurd.
    - Chriky 9y ago
      Yeah... especially as it's apparently given to significantly more than 1% of children!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

arkades 9y ago

I think my posting history here is sufficient to suggest that I’m not a pharma not. Allow me to throw in, then: Individual experiences vary. Patients have reported experiences like what both of you describe, though the reality tends to be a lot more middle of the road than that. I’ve required such medications myself, and my experience was much more on the positive side, though not as extreme.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
oligopoly 9y ago
One thing to remember is people who get treated and are managing well are less likely voicing their opinions and just going about their lives.
- hnuser1234 9y ago
  No they definitely go out of their way to sing praises for pushing this shit on unsuspecting kids who have no idea what they're getting into, while telling them it'll only make things better.

tuespetre 9y ago

Hmm. I am a real human male (beep boop) who takes another stimulant (Vyvanse) and I beg to differ.

goldenkey 9y ago
Vyvanse is just a prodrug that metabolizes into the shittier enantiomer of amphetamine, L-amphetamine.

spiralx 9y ago

> I'm sorry, but every time I read shit like this I have to wonder if I'm reading from some big pharma social media bot. Assuming the worst of posters is definitely against the site rules, and just rude in general. As someone who takes Equasym - the same as Concerta except the different release cycle - I can't recognise anything in your post as being what I've experienced, nor does it match anyone else I know that also uses the same medication. Your anger certainly seems misplaced to me, but severe enough that you should probably seek help for it. Hope you manage to move on in life.

goldenkey 9y ago
Just admit that the drugs are simple stimulants.. not complex in their action. Amphetamines do not change personality or the brains normal function - any change is behaviorally due to the stimulant nature. Many antidepressants are so complex we still don't know their chemical pathways in the brain - this isn't the case for SPEED. Now that we are on the same page, we can talk about whether a zippity bee bop drug is advisable to give to those that lack discipline for doing hard and laborious mental and physical tasks. The truth is that these drugs arent the antichrist but they sure as hell arent meant to be taken daily. They should be treated with respect.

commandlinefan 9y ago

It's so hard to tell, honestly. I'm a programmer - I sit in front of a computer and sling code all day long. Around 3 PM or so, after about 6 hours of reading technical documentation, stepping through breakpoints, mocking up proposed designs and figuring out which data structures go with which problems, I start to feel so worn down that I just can't concentrate any more. I take a mental "rest" (and go on here, for example), but I don't know if that makes me a lazy slacker, or just a normal human being who's been trying to concentrate (in a ridiculously noisy open bullpen) for longer than humans were meant to. There's an interesting blog written by a practicing psychiatrist (which, as blogs go, is interesting because it's interesting but also because it's one of the few blogs not written by a computer programmer or angsty teenager) where he talks about his role as the "gatekeeper of Adderall": http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mor... he says that professionals like computer programmers and accountants come to him seeking Adderall so that they can concentrate enough to get their jobs done the way we normally associate opioid addicts looking for pain medication. Do I drop off after a few hours because I'm wrong in the head, or because I'm just human?

BugsJustFindMe 9y ago

> I'm sorry, but every time I read shit like this I'm sorry that you think another person's life experiences are shit. > I have to wonder if I'm reading from some big pharma social media bot. It's very strange to hear this coming from an account created 15 days ago with a generic name and scant comment history. > It makes you neurotic, trapped in your own head...you...you...you... I would like to be the first totally-a-human person to welcome you to the real world where your personal feelings aren't universal truths.