5 ms·

I'm not sure it's really even a political problem, except to the extent that all values problems are political problems. It's just that if your kids get beat

by lsc 9y ago

I'm not sure it's really even a political problem, except to the extent that all values problems are political problems. It's just that if your kids get beat up for being good at math... well, your society is going to fall behind.

jorblumesea 9y ago
That is inherently a political problem, in my eyes. Politics and culture are intertwined. The culture of the region has to change, but it's unclear if anyone really wants to change. Maybe when the money is attached to being studious things might be different. Sadly the midwest sees education and educated people as at best, an inconvenience, and at worst, a threat.
- smashingfiasco 9y ago
  The Midwest sees educated people as an inconvenience or a threat? Goddamn. Where did you get that idea from? Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about. The problem is that it’s stagnanted over here. NAFTA destroyed the way of life for a lot of mid-westneners. Made people poor. Made want. Destroyed the mechanisms, the entry level, manual jobs, that people used to pull themselves up by. Municipalities got into a vicious cycle of loss of tax base feeding into loss of services feeding into even more loss of tax base. For starters, to get an idea of what’s going on over here, I’d recommend you watch both Detropia and Flint Town. Get a little taste of reality and see the people you’re trying to crap on. Everyone here, everyone sees that value and importance of education. Every parent, even in the most down-trodden neighborhoods with the worst schools, wants this for their children. Again, loss of tax base, loss of jobs, increased violence. Assuming you live on one of the coasts, you’ll get yours. Just wait until the underfunded pension systems finally blow. Can’t believe I just read such a level idiocy on HN.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > The problem is that it’s stagnanted over here. NAFTA destroyed the way of life for a lot of mid-westneners. Neoliberal international trade without adequate internal redistribution of gains (which was going on long before NAFTA, though NAFTA was a particular example) broadly was doing that for quite a long time, but the problem is.more on the lack of redistribution end than the open trade end (you do want to avoid a race to the bottom on labor, environmental, etc., standards, but in aggregate terms trade is a net gain and losing that gain without doing anything about internal distribution isn't going to do many people any good — as Trump's tarriffs may soon demonstrate tangibly.) > Everyone here, everyone sees that value and importance of education. That might be true of your neighborhood; it's clearly not generally true as demonstrated by the outcomes of elections in the Midwest at every level. > Again, loss of tax base, loss of jobs, increased violence. Sure, economic dislocation and it's side effects may be why culture war topics leveraging cultural resentment directed both at “coastal elites” and both higher education and the people that have it is a winning way for local elites to line up political support between policies they feather their own nests.
  - lsc 9y ago
    If it really is about economic pain for the poor, why did they vote in someone who promised to cut taxes for the rich and benefits for the poor? That sounds like the action of a people who think they are doing fine; people who don't think they need help.
    - smashingfiasco 9y ago
      I can’t answer for everyone in the Midwest, but from what I saw, no one trusted HRC. And if you were paying attention, it was revealed that politics “is like making suasage,” and that “you have to have a public position and a private position.” And yes, I still hear a lot of resentment about NAFTA, which is strongly associated with the first Clinton administration. No one trusts that family. The people in this region called BS, not because they’re racist and uneducated, but because they feel that they were betrayed before. When the coasts shouted “racists” at them, it made everyone double-down in their position. Meanwhile, DJT basically steals the Obama-era democratic platform, makes a stop in their little main-street town and promises the impossible. Someone else might have a different experience, but this is what I saw and heard. —— To be clear, midwesterners weren’t voting based on tax policy as you suggest, this was about trust, betrayal and vengeance.
      - lsc 9y ago
        >To be clear, midwesterners weren’t voting based on tax policy as you suggest, this was about trust, betrayal and vengeance. That's consistent... but I don't really see how it's actionable. There's a lot of talk on the left about what we can do to help the midwest financially, but as you say, it's not about money. If you had the ear of someone who mattered in the 'blue state' establishment, what would you tell them if they asked "What can the blue states do to help?"
  - lsc 9y ago
    >Assuming you live on one of the coasts, you’ll get yours. Just wait until the underfunded pension systems finally blow. Do you think people on the coast will be more hurt than people inland by social security getting defunded?
TangoTrotFox 9y ago
I would argue that there's also another issue at play in this particular topic, or trope. We've created this weird dichotomy in society where people pretend that children must choose if they want to be a 'math nerd' or a 'jock.' I'm not really sure that comes from and it's never been my experience. I competed in mathematics events at a national level, was on the chess club, and also wrestled varsity and enjoy weight training. And I never experienced anything except friendliness and respect, even as a certainly somewhat weird 'outsider' having swapped schools multiple times. The ancient Greeks, who helped develop much of the foundation of modern technology and society, emphasized the relevance of strength in mind and body, and I think that's something that we've increasingly lost. And that's ironic since if you look at many examples of stereotypically 'mental' enterprises, you'll find people who follow this tend to populate the top. Imagine, if you don't know, what the chess world champion must look like. He earned his grandmaster title at 13 years old, and has been playing seriously since he was a child. Here [1] is a picture of him, Magnus Carlsen. [1] - http://oi65.tinypic.com/5vw2t5.jpg http://oi65.tinypic.com/5vw2t5.jpg
- lsc 9y ago
  I think it's about values, not about physique. You can be big and nerdy and while being big can stop the most physical manifestations of social ostracization, my observation is that isn't the most painful part. I mean, I think the other part you are missing is that a lot of us who grew up as "nerds" are socially... wrong in ways that are less socially accepted than violence. I don't think being on a sports team would solve that problem.
  - karthikvellanki 9y ago
    Could you elaborate on the other ways that 'nerds' could be wrong?
    - lsc 9y ago
      so first? go read what Paul Graham wrote about this[1] It does a good job of explaining US school culture. but Graham was far more functional than many. I mean, in general terms, 'nerds' often don't have the social skills expected of others their age. Sometimes, it's like Graham says; it's just a matter of practice. Other times it's that we just don't have the same background or aptitude for navigating emotions; we didn't have that same ability to conform. I mean, usually it's a combination of those things; conforming in the way the other students do is harder than it is for most people, so you rebel from them the way you rebel against your parents, only your peers don't have the depth of understanding, the patience, and the duty of care your parents have. And it was more brutal than Graham makes it out to be, because as a teen, it feels like that is just how the world is. For me, my escape was that I got an IT job in high school... it was like heaven. For two hours a day after school, I was treated like a human being with valuable skills, and people put up with my minor social transgressions because they expected a little bit of acting out from a kid. Really, I think that's most of the difference between a 'nerd' and a regular troubled child; the nerd has an outlet, a haven, and a future. A nerd can withdraw into books rather than just snowballing the behavioral problems. (though, to other students, reading books is seen as a behavioral problem. Still, at least in my school career, if you just wanted to read during recess hours, there was almost always a friendly teacher who would let you eat lunch and read in their class, if you were quiet.) But, my point, I guess, is just that there are plenty of American children who are smart and study and do sports and are popular.... people like what TangoTrotFox describes further up this thread. People who are socially skilled enough that they know, for example, that you don't read in front of other people. Those people aren't properly 'nerds' - they're just smart. Most of us would have been those people if we could have... but we lacked the social aptitude. But I'm still not being terribly specific. I guess a lot of that is that it's embarrassing and painful... but I think my peers would have described me as mean and arrogant. [1]http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

by lsc 9y ago

jorblumesea 9y ago

That is inherently a political problem, in my eyes. Politics and culture are intertwined. The culture of the region has to change, but it's unclear if anyone really wants to change. Maybe when the money is attached to being studious things might be different. Sadly the midwest sees education and educated people as at best, an inconvenience, and at worst, a threat.

smashingfiasco 9y ago
The Midwest sees educated people as an inconvenience or a threat? Goddamn. Where did you get that idea from? Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about. The problem is that it’s stagnanted over here. NAFTA destroyed the way of life for a lot of mid-westneners. Made people poor. Made want. Destroyed the mechanisms, the entry level, manual jobs, that people used to pull themselves up by. Municipalities got into a vicious cycle of loss of tax base feeding into loss of services feeding into even more loss of tax base. For starters, to get an idea of what’s going on over here, I’d recommend you watch both Detropia and Flint Town. Get a little taste of reality and see the people you’re trying to crap on. Everyone here, everyone sees that value and importance of education. Every parent, even in the most down-trodden neighborhoods with the worst schools, wants this for their children. Again, loss of tax base, loss of jobs, increased violence. Assuming you live on one of the coasts, you’ll get yours. Just wait until the underfunded pension systems finally blow. Can’t believe I just read such a level idiocy on HN.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > The problem is that it’s stagnanted over here. NAFTA destroyed the way of life for a lot of mid-westneners. Neoliberal international trade without adequate internal redistribution of gains (which was going on long before NAFTA, though NAFTA was a particular example) broadly was doing that for quite a long time, but the problem is.more on the lack of redistribution end than the open trade end (you do want to avoid a race to the bottom on labor, environmental, etc., standards, but in aggregate terms trade is a net gain and losing that gain without doing anything about internal distribution isn't going to do many people any good — as Trump's tarriffs may soon demonstrate tangibly.) > Everyone here, everyone sees that value and importance of education. That might be true of your neighborhood; it's clearly not generally true as demonstrated by the outcomes of elections in the Midwest at every level. > Again, loss of tax base, loss of jobs, increased violence. Sure, economic dislocation and it's side effects may be why culture war topics leveraging cultural resentment directed both at “coastal elites” and both higher education and the people that have it is a winning way for local elites to line up political support between policies they feather their own nests.
- lsc 9y ago
  If it really is about economic pain for the poor, why did they vote in someone who promised to cut taxes for the rich and benefits for the poor? That sounds like the action of a people who think they are doing fine; people who don't think they need help.
  - smashingfiasco 9y ago
    I can’t answer for everyone in the Midwest, but from what I saw, no one trusted HRC. And if you were paying attention, it was revealed that politics “is like making suasage,” and that “you have to have a public position and a private position.” And yes, I still hear a lot of resentment about NAFTA, which is strongly associated with the first Clinton administration. No one trusts that family. The people in this region called BS, not because they’re racist and uneducated, but because they feel that they were betrayed before. When the coasts shouted “racists” at them, it made everyone double-down in their position. Meanwhile, DJT basically steals the Obama-era democratic platform, makes a stop in their little main-street town and promises the impossible. Someone else might have a different experience, but this is what I saw and heard. —— To be clear, midwesterners weren’t voting based on tax policy as you suggest, this was about trust, betrayal and vengeance.
    - lsc 9y ago
      >To be clear, midwesterners weren’t voting based on tax policy as you suggest, this was about trust, betrayal and vengeance. That's consistent... but I don't really see how it's actionable. There's a lot of talk on the left about what we can do to help the midwest financially, but as you say, it's not about money. If you had the ear of someone who mattered in the 'blue state' establishment, what would you tell them if they asked "What can the blue states do to help?"
- lsc 9y ago
  >Assuming you live on one of the coasts, you’ll get yours. Just wait until the underfunded pension systems finally blow. Do you think people on the coast will be more hurt than people inland by social security getting defunded?

TangoTrotFox 9y ago

I would argue that there's also another issue at play in this particular topic, or trope. We've created this weird dichotomy in society where people pretend that children must choose if they want to be a 'math nerd' or a 'jock.' I'm not really sure that comes from and it's never been my experience. I competed in mathematics events at a national level, was on the chess club, and also wrestled varsity and enjoy weight training. And I never experienced anything except friendliness and respect, even as a certainly somewhat weird 'outsider' having swapped schools multiple times. The ancient Greeks, who helped develop much of the foundation of modern technology and society, emphasized the relevance of strength in mind and body, and I think that's something that we've increasingly lost. And that's ironic since if you look at many examples of stereotypically 'mental' enterprises, you'll find people who follow this tend to populate the top. Imagine, if you don't know, what the chess world champion must look like. He earned his grandmaster title at 13 years old, and has been playing seriously since he was a child. Here [1] is a picture of him, Magnus Carlsen. [1] - http://oi65.tinypic.com/5vw2t5.jpg http://oi65.tinypic.com/5vw2t5.jpg

lsc 9y ago
I think it's about values, not about physique. You can be big and nerdy and while being big can stop the most physical manifestations of social ostracization, my observation is that isn't the most painful part. I mean, I think the other part you are missing is that a lot of us who grew up as "nerds" are socially... wrong in ways that are less socially accepted than violence. I don't think being on a sports team would solve that problem.
- karthikvellanki 9y ago
  Could you elaborate on the other ways that 'nerds' could be wrong?
  - lsc 9y ago
    so first? go read what Paul Graham wrote about this[1] It does a good job of explaining US school culture. but Graham was far more functional than many. I mean, in general terms, 'nerds' often don't have the social skills expected of others their age. Sometimes, it's like Graham says; it's just a matter of practice. Other times it's that we just don't have the same background or aptitude for navigating emotions; we didn't have that same ability to conform. I mean, usually it's a combination of those things; conforming in the way the other students do is harder than it is for most people, so you rebel from them the way you rebel against your parents, only your peers don't have the depth of understanding, the patience, and the duty of care your parents have. And it was more brutal than Graham makes it out to be, because as a teen, it feels like that is just how the world is. For me, my escape was that I got an IT job in high school... it was like heaven. For two hours a day after school, I was treated like a human being with valuable skills, and people put up with my minor social transgressions because they expected a little bit of acting out from a kid. Really, I think that's most of the difference between a 'nerd' and a regular troubled child; the nerd has an outlet, a haven, and a future. A nerd can withdraw into books rather than just snowballing the behavioral problems. (though, to other students, reading books is seen as a behavioral problem. Still, at least in my school career, if you just wanted to read during recess hours, there was almost always a friendly teacher who would let you eat lunch and read in their class, if you were quiet.) But, my point, I guess, is just that there are plenty of American children who are smart and study and do sports and are popular.... people like what TangoTrotFox describes further up this thread. People who are socially skilled enough that they know, for example, that you don't read in front of other people. Those people aren't properly 'nerds' - they're just smart. Most of us would have been those people if we could have... but we lacked the social aptitude. But I'm still not being terribly specific. I guess a lot of that is that it's embarrassing and painful... but I think my peers would have described me as mean and arrogant. [1]http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html