10 ms·

>It also doesn't help that every state in the midwest has been slashing educational budgets and in some states has enacted almost a war on education. Yeah, uh,

by lsc 9y ago

>It also doesn't help that every state in the midwest has been slashing educational budgets and in some states has enacted almost a war on education. Yeah, uh, this is going to end badly; I left the central valley for the anti-intellectual culture. It's a long term problem, and I don't really see how you combat it. Educational funding, I think, might even be a trailing indicator of this; If your culture doesn't value learning... you have a much bigger problem than just underfunded schools.

jeron 9y ago
Making higher education free would be a great start, but that's probably not happening anytime soon
- lsc 9y ago
  My argument is that not valuing education (as evinced by an unwillingness to spend public money on it) is an even bigger problem than the actual lack of money for education, though that is also certainly a problem.
  - rdiddly 9y ago
    Where there's no will, there's no way...
- newbear 9y ago
  I can get a better education from Moocs than I did from my tenured mathematics professor who didn’t know the applications of linear algebra in the real world.
  - lsc 9y ago
    Would you ask your Literature professor what the real world applications of reading Joseph Conrad are? I think asking for a 'real world application' of something you are learning in the course of a liberal education is missing the point. Trade schools are a different sort of thing.
    - tdb7893 9y ago
      For an engineering discipline getting a college degree is almost always a requirement for getting a real job. This means that practically for a lot of people college is largely intended to be training for their job, so it makes sense why they get frustrated when it doesn't actually train them for it. To pull my personal experience in college was frustrating because I didn't feel like I had much control over what I wanted to learn because college had their idea of a "liberal education" (which didn't match up with mine) and in a modern job market I had little choice but to attend.
      - lsc 9y ago
        If you mean like a licenced engineer, a PE or something, then sure, a degree is required. But if you mean someone in the computer industry, as the word is usually used in these parts? A degree is a substitute for a few years of experience, If you can learn the Material in question.
- smashingfiasco 9y ago
  Higher education is turning more and more into over-priced crap. I’m not sure that this is the solution.
- redspectre 9y ago
  There's no free lunch. You're paying for it.
  - lsc 9y ago
    I personally place public education up there with an army and cops as things I really want my society to have. Yeah, all those things cost money... but not nearly as much as not having those things will cost you in the long run.
jorblumesea 9y ago
Same here. I grew up in the midwest and left it for political reasons. While I do detest the progressive echo chamber, the alternative seems to be far worse in many ways. Under the veneer of charming and can do spirit lies an under current of some of the worst America has to offer. Opposition to freedom of speech, opposition to education and free thought, racism... the list goes on. I think this article just shows how little these VC West coasters know about the midwest.
- lsc 9y ago
  I'm not sure it's really even a political problem, except to the extent that all values problems are political problems. It's just that if your kids get beat up for being good at math... well, your society is going to fall behind.
  - jorblumesea 9y ago
    That is inherently a political problem, in my eyes. Politics and culture are intertwined. The culture of the region has to change, but it's unclear if anyone really wants to change. Maybe when the money is attached to being studious things might be different. Sadly the midwest sees education and educated people as at best, an inconvenience, and at worst, a threat.
    - smashingfiasco 9y ago
      The Midwest sees educated people as an inconvenience or a threat? Goddamn. Where did you get that idea from? Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about. The problem is that it’s stagnanted over here. NAFTA destroyed the way of life for a lot of mid-westneners. Made people poor. Made want. Destroyed the mechanisms, the entry level, manual jobs, that people used to pull themselves up by. Municipalities got into a vicious cycle of loss of tax base feeding into loss of services feeding into even more loss of tax base. For starters, to get an idea of what’s going on over here, I’d recommend you watch both Detropia and Flint Town. Get a little taste of reality and see the people you’re trying to crap on. Everyone here, everyone sees that value and importance of education. Every parent, even in the most down-trodden neighborhoods with the worst schools, wants this for their children. Again, loss of tax base, loss of jobs, increased violence. Assuming you live on one of the coasts, you’ll get yours. Just wait until the underfunded pension systems finally blow. Can’t believe I just read such a level idiocy on HN.
TangoTrotFox 9y ago
I think this point is something that's often missed in the political dogma on education. At least by PISA scores many of the countries now beating us spend substantially less on education than we do. For instance Vietnam is now ahead of the US in math and science. In fact, they're 8th in the world in science. Their purchasing power parity GDP/capita is $6,925 ($2,305 nominal) and a total of 6.6% of that goes to education. That's $450/capita, parity compensated. In the US we spend 5.6% of $61,687 per capita which is $3455/capita - north of 700% greater than Vietnam's spending, parity adjusted. You can't just spend your way to people valuing and embracing education. - [1] Convenient listing of the 2015 PISA results - [2] List of nations by percent of GDP spent on education, one click away from conversion to parity adjusted $/capita [1] - http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-mat... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_%28%25_of_GDP%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_...

by lsc 9y ago

jeron 9y ago

Making higher education free would be a great start, but that's probably not happening anytime soon

lsc 9y ago
My argument is that not valuing education (as evinced by an unwillingness to spend public money on it) is an even bigger problem than the actual lack of money for education, though that is also certainly a problem.
- rdiddly 9y ago
  Where there's no will, there's no way...
newbear 9y ago
I can get a better education from Moocs than I did from my tenured mathematics professor who didn’t know the applications of linear algebra in the real world.
- lsc 9y ago
  Would you ask your Literature professor what the real world applications of reading Joseph Conrad are? I think asking for a 'real world application' of something you are learning in the course of a liberal education is missing the point. Trade schools are a different sort of thing.
  - tdb7893 9y ago
    For an engineering discipline getting a college degree is almost always a requirement for getting a real job. This means that practically for a lot of people college is largely intended to be training for their job, so it makes sense why they get frustrated when it doesn't actually train them for it. To pull my personal experience in college was frustrating because I didn't feel like I had much control over what I wanted to learn because college had their idea of a "liberal education" (which didn't match up with mine) and in a modern job market I had little choice but to attend.
    - lsc 9y ago
      If you mean like a licenced engineer, a PE or something, then sure, a degree is required. But if you mean someone in the computer industry, as the word is usually used in these parts? A degree is a substitute for a few years of experience, If you can learn the Material in question.
smashingfiasco 9y ago
Higher education is turning more and more into over-priced crap. I’m not sure that this is the solution.
redspectre 9y ago
There's no free lunch. You're paying for it.
- lsc 9y ago
  I personally place public education up there with an army and cops as things I really want my society to have. Yeah, all those things cost money... but not nearly as much as not having those things will cost you in the long run.

jorblumesea 9y ago

Same here. I grew up in the midwest and left it for political reasons. While I do detest the progressive echo chamber, the alternative seems to be far worse in many ways. Under the veneer of charming and can do spirit lies an under current of some of the worst America has to offer. Opposition to freedom of speech, opposition to education and free thought, racism... the list goes on. I think this article just shows how little these VC West coasters know about the midwest.

lsc 9y ago
I'm not sure it's really even a political problem, except to the extent that all values problems are political problems. It's just that if your kids get beat up for being good at math... well, your society is going to fall behind.
- jorblumesea 9y ago
  That is inherently a political problem, in my eyes. Politics and culture are intertwined. The culture of the region has to change, but it's unclear if anyone really wants to change. Maybe when the money is attached to being studious things might be different. Sadly the midwest sees education and educated people as at best, an inconvenience, and at worst, a threat.
  - smashingfiasco 9y ago
    The Midwest sees educated people as an inconvenience or a threat? Goddamn. Where did you get that idea from? Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about. The problem is that it’s stagnanted over here. NAFTA destroyed the way of life for a lot of mid-westneners. Made people poor. Made want. Destroyed the mechanisms, the entry level, manual jobs, that people used to pull themselves up by. Municipalities got into a vicious cycle of loss of tax base feeding into loss of services feeding into even more loss of tax base. For starters, to get an idea of what’s going on over here, I’d recommend you watch both Detropia and Flint Town. Get a little taste of reality and see the people you’re trying to crap on. Everyone here, everyone sees that value and importance of education. Every parent, even in the most down-trodden neighborhoods with the worst schools, wants this for their children. Again, loss of tax base, loss of jobs, increased violence. Assuming you live on one of the coasts, you’ll get yours. Just wait until the underfunded pension systems finally blow. Can’t believe I just read such a level idiocy on HN.

TangoTrotFox 9y ago

I think this point is something that's often missed in the political dogma on education. At least by PISA scores many of the countries now beating us spend substantially less on education than we do. For instance Vietnam is now ahead of the US in math and science. In fact, they're 8th in the world in science. Their purchasing power parity GDP/capita is $6,925 ($2,305 nominal) and a total of 6.6% of that goes to education. That's $450/capita, parity compensated. In the US we spend 5.6% of $61,687 per capita which is $3455/capita - north of 700% greater than Vietnam's spending, parity adjusted. You can't just spend your way to people valuing and embracing education. - [1] Convenient listing of the 2015 PISA results - [2] List of nations by percent of GDP spent on education, one click away from conversion to parity adjusted $/capita [1] - http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-mat... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_%28%25_of_GDP%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_...