10 ms·

All of those things for white men, at least since 2008. Which you can read either way (oy, I must have karma to burn?). On the one hand, the anti-capitalist le

All of those things for white men, at least since 2008. Which you can read either way (oy, I must have karma to burn?). On the one hand, the anti-capitalist left in the US has historically had a contingent with racial undertones. On the other hand, literally every other group's station was improved at least in part through government mechanisms (equal protection under law, civil rights, etc.) rather than market mechanisms.

OrganicMSG 9y ago
By the way, it turns out people have been fucking all along and that there actually aren't any black or white people. Never were. Someone made the whole thing up and it got a wee bit out of hand. Thought you might like to know, as it might save you an awful lot of time and worry.
- shard972 9y ago
  What is the claim you are trying to make? I don't see any sarcastic "/s" present so I assume you are being serious. Are you saying that there are none to little genetic/biological differences between different races?
  - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
    I think he's saying that "races" are a made up category and theres just people. I happen to agree, there is nothing special about some gene pool with an evocative label.
    - shard972 9y ago
      To believe that you would have to ignore the current scientific evidence which is becoming stronger and stronger with the acceleration in our understanding of the human genome. Even without any of that evidence though, we still have books like the bell curve which people have tried hard to debunk but so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked.
      - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
        > current scientific evidence there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. > so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked. ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category?
        shard972 9y ago
        > there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. Huh? Race is defined by a combination of genetics in the form of phenotypes and culture. I don't see the circular paradox here. > another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. But we can? We can say that Chinese are more likely to be shorter than africans. That asians are more likely to have black hair than blonde hair or that africans are more likely to have higher testosterone than european whites or indians. Ask any doctor or pharmacist and they can list you a few ways they are taught about how to treat people of different races differently because of biological differences. We can even go further and say for instance that ashkenazi jews have a higher average IQ compared to Africans due to a large part their genetic differences and not purely environmental reasons. The bell curve which was published a few decades ago proves many of these kind of claims so I don't know where you get this idea that we cannot determine anything useful from race. > ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category? I gave a definition previously which is pretty accepted, for how you test for a race the answer is that's pretty easy, 99% of the time you can just ask someone and they will tell you. We can prove this through cluster analysis, where you take a sample set of people and first ask them what race they are from a set number of selections. They then can read SNPs from each of the participants and hand that to a computer without the self reported data the people provided. What you see is that even with 100 random SNP's you have a near perfect correlation between what people say their race is and the computer correctly grouping them into the race they chose. If you want to see some sources, here is an article that links off and summarizes the studies I am referencing http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329...
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      Sure, but I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise? Obviously there's very little genetic basis for the concept of race as a big important thing, but social constructs are absolutely real even if they're a product of our collective imagination.
      - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
        I'm having a little discussion on a parallel thread where someone absolutely is advocating for some sort of racial determinism and thats the context for the comment. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16517930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16517930
  - testestx 9y ago
    There's no such thing as human races. http://www.americananthro.org/ConnectWithAAA/Content.aspx?ItemNumber=2583 http://www.americananthro.org/ConnectWithAAA/Content.aspx?It...
    - nefitty 9y ago
      The statement on race by that group was adopted in 1998, and is based on work from 1996-1997. That's at least 20 years of possible advancement in the field, unaccounted for. 'The paper above was adopted by the AAA Executive Board on May 17, 1998, as an official statement of AAA's position on "race."'
    - shard972 9y ago
      I linked these papers to someone else but it seems like you could use them. Both show absolutely no consensus by anthropologists on race and even a general acceptance of race among biologists: https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308 http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308
  - OrganicMSG 9y ago
    I'm saying I can invent races on the fly, then find genetic differences that would appear to back me up. Is like playing numerology with a large enough book, you can always find patterns. Finding patterns however doesn't mean that black and white as racial qualifiers are anything other than a highly inaccurate classification system that is used to align skin colour with social class, and which doesn't even fall within the gamut of actual skin tone. Is patently obvious where black and white came from as concepts, if you look through history rather than biology. While I do not expect to win this argument on nomenclature within the next fifty years, I do hold out some hope over the next century. edit - Also, am British, the use of a sarcasm tag is offensive to our people. Probably for genetic reasons.
    - shard972 9y ago
      I think you need to read up on some the cluster analysis work that has been done over the last decade. Your statement about inventing races and assigning them to people isn't true. I linked this in another comment but ill mention it again, this article makes a comprehensive argument for race while linking off to the supporting papers instead of just me shotgunning a bunch of papers at you. http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329... Look under the heading "Genetic Clusteredness" and you find a summary of papers such as Bamshad 2003 which explain how they can conclude a strong correlation between self reported races and objective measured genetics via SNPs.
      - OrganicMSG 9y ago
        I hereby invent the race classifier of tongue-dexterity. Society consists of those who can and cannot roll their tongue and there is a high priesthood of the folks who can bend their tongue into a 'W'. It is just as arbitrary and capricious, but has at least one benefit I can think of over classifying people by latitude adaptation.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > Are you saying that there are none to little genetic/biological differences between different races? That's pretty much what any geneticist says.
    - shard972 9y ago
      Unless you go to china, and suddenly we find pretty much 0 geneticists who would claim that races are just some arbitrary construct with no predictive value. To roll it back to the west though, I have seen surveys like this of anthropologists which show no con: https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x Or this paper, in particular page 313 which show biologists with a 70% agreement with the question of “There are Biological Races Within the Species Homo Sapiens;”. http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308 http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308
PopsiclePete 9y ago
As a pasty white man myself, life has been improving steadily since 2008. My income I think has doubled since then, I’ve lost about 20lbs of fat and I’ve picked up some cool new hobbies! True, I did have to get a relevant degree and not be an idiot at work to advance, but life is pretty good overall. Now if you mean that being a White Man by itself isn’t enough anymore to get you a cushy life style, then yes, it’s not. Welcome to the place everyone else has been in since forever.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  There's a lot of people who weren't invited to the party. The "able bodied, but aren't working number is close to an all time high. I believe it's higher than when women stayed at home while hubby worked? I have never seen this amount of homelessness. I see daily. Im becoming too hardened to the suffering. People used to have the privilege of having two shitty jobs. Now--those jobs are coveted, as careers, by hard working immigrants--that see nothing wrong with fitting six people in a 10 x 12 foot room. Look at the jobs on Craigslist. Work with us for three hours a day, or on call? So many are just rediculious. Buy a four door, late model car, we approve of, and go into a slow debt death. Or, the amount of thieving bastards who know they can get away with terrible work conditions, and pay that makes showing up debatable. Crime is down. Cameras are everywhere. People/business don't use cash like they used too. Surveillance is everywhere. And like always, the rich seem to get treated better by the justice system? Fees/fines have never been so high. Only the wealthy can afford to commit crimes? Oh, and they do run afoul of so many laws. Look at all the young scholars who are living at home. Many living at a family home that will probally not be passed down because mom and dad will be forced into a reverse mortgage. In tech--yes, the party is fierce. I do notice the new cars. I notice the carefree attitude. There's a liberal air of "Hay--it's just hard work? I'm just more clever than that guy?". I hope it all lasts. I guarantee so many of you will be right here wondering what the hell happened, on a old device? I think a new version of the punk movement will pop up. The hippie movement won't be the joke it currently is. Hell--the denial might protect a lot of you when the money dries up?
IanCal 9y ago
2008 is a decade, not five. But more importantly, what statistics do you actually have for this?

OrganicMSG 9y ago

By the way, it turns out people have been fucking all along and that there actually aren't any black or white people. Never were. Someone made the whole thing up and it got a wee bit out of hand. Thought you might like to know, as it might save you an awful lot of time and worry.

shard972 9y ago
What is the claim you are trying to make? I don't see any sarcastic "/s" present so I assume you are being serious. Are you saying that there are none to little genetic/biological differences between different races?
- tensor_rank_0 9y ago
  I think he's saying that "races" are a made up category and theres just people. I happen to agree, there is nothing special about some gene pool with an evocative label.
  - shard972 9y ago
    To believe that you would have to ignore the current scientific evidence which is becoming stronger and stronger with the acceleration in our understanding of the human genome. Even without any of that evidence though, we still have books like the bell curve which people have tried hard to debunk but so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked.
    - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
      > current scientific evidence there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. > so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked. ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category?
      - shard972 9y ago
        > there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. Huh? Race is defined by a combination of genetics in the form of phenotypes and culture. I don't see the circular paradox here. > another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. But we can? We can say that Chinese are more likely to be shorter than africans. That asians are more likely to have black hair than blonde hair or that africans are more likely to have higher testosterone than european whites or indians. Ask any doctor or pharmacist and they can list you a few ways they are taught about how to treat people of different races differently because of biological differences. We can even go further and say for instance that ashkenazi jews have a higher average IQ compared to Africans due to a large part their genetic differences and not purely environmental reasons. The bell curve which was published a few decades ago proves many of these kind of claims so I don't know where you get this idea that we cannot determine anything useful from race. > ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category? I gave a definition previously which is pretty accepted, for how you test for a race the answer is that's pretty easy, 99% of the time you can just ask someone and they will tell you. We can prove this through cluster analysis, where you take a sample set of people and first ask them what race they are from a set number of selections. They then can read SNPs from each of the participants and hand that to a computer without the self reported data the people provided. What you see is that even with 100 random SNP's you have a near perfect correlation between what people say their race is and the computer correctly grouping them into the race they chose. If you want to see some sources, here is an article that links off and summarizes the studies I am referencing http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329...
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    Sure, but I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise? Obviously there's very little genetic basis for the concept of race as a big important thing, but social constructs are absolutely real even if they're a product of our collective imagination.
    - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
      I'm having a little discussion on a parallel thread where someone absolutely is advocating for some sort of racial determinism and thats the context for the comment. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16517930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16517930
- testestx 9y ago
  There's no such thing as human races. http://www.americananthro.org/ConnectWithAAA/Content.aspx?ItemNumber=2583 http://www.americananthro.org/ConnectWithAAA/Content.aspx?It...
  - nefitty 9y ago
    The statement on race by that group was adopted in 1998, and is based on work from 1996-1997. That's at least 20 years of possible advancement in the field, unaccounted for. 'The paper above was adopted by the AAA Executive Board on May 17, 1998, as an official statement of AAA's position on "race."'
  - shard972 9y ago
    I linked these papers to someone else but it seems like you could use them. Both show absolutely no consensus by anthropologists on race and even a general acceptance of race among biologists: https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308 http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308
- OrganicMSG 9y ago
  I'm saying I can invent races on the fly, then find genetic differences that would appear to back me up. Is like playing numerology with a large enough book, you can always find patterns. Finding patterns however doesn't mean that black and white as racial qualifiers are anything other than a highly inaccurate classification system that is used to align skin colour with social class, and which doesn't even fall within the gamut of actual skin tone. Is patently obvious where black and white came from as concepts, if you look through history rather than biology. While I do not expect to win this argument on nomenclature within the next fifty years, I do hold out some hope over the next century. edit - Also, am British, the use of a sarcasm tag is offensive to our people. Probably for genetic reasons.
  - shard972 9y ago
    I think you need to read up on some the cluster analysis work that has been done over the last decade. Your statement about inventing races and assigning them to people isn't true. I linked this in another comment but ill mention it again, this article makes a comprehensive argument for race while linking off to the supporting papers instead of just me shotgunning a bunch of papers at you. http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329... Look under the heading "Genetic Clusteredness" and you find a summary of papers such as Bamshad 2003 which explain how they can conclude a strong correlation between self reported races and objective measured genetics via SNPs.
    - OrganicMSG 9y ago
      I hereby invent the race classifier of tongue-dexterity. Society consists of those who can and cannot roll their tongue and there is a high priesthood of the folks who can bend their tongue into a 'W'. It is just as arbitrary and capricious, but has at least one benefit I can think of over classifying people by latitude adaptation.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Are you saying that there are none to little genetic/biological differences between different races? That's pretty much what any geneticist says.
  - shard972 9y ago
    Unless you go to china, and suddenly we find pretty much 0 geneticists who would claim that races are just some arbitrary construct with no predictive value. To roll it back to the west though, I have seen surveys like this of anthropologists which show no con: https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x https://sci-hub.hk/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x Or this paper, in particular page 313 which show biologists with a 70% agreement with the question of “There are Biological Races Within the Species Homo Sapiens;”. http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308 http://sci-hub.hk/10.1002/tea.3660290308

PopsiclePete 9y ago

As a pasty white man myself, life has been improving steadily since 2008. My income I think has doubled since then, I’ve lost about 20lbs of fat and I’ve picked up some cool new hobbies! True, I did have to get a relevant degree and not be an idiot at work to advance, but life is pretty good overall. Now if you mean that being a White Man by itself isn’t enough anymore to get you a cushy life style, then yes, it’s not. Welcome to the place everyone else has been in since forever.

icantdrive55 9y ago
There's a lot of people who weren't invited to the party. The "able bodied, but aren't working number is close to an all time high. I believe it's higher than when women stayed at home while hubby worked? I have never seen this amount of homelessness. I see daily. Im becoming too hardened to the suffering. People used to have the privilege of having two shitty jobs. Now--those jobs are coveted, as careers, by hard working immigrants--that see nothing wrong with fitting six people in a 10 x 12 foot room. Look at the jobs on Craigslist. Work with us for three hours a day, or on call? So many are just rediculious. Buy a four door, late model car, we approve of, and go into a slow debt death. Or, the amount of thieving bastards who know they can get away with terrible work conditions, and pay that makes showing up debatable. Crime is down. Cameras are everywhere. People/business don't use cash like they used too. Surveillance is everywhere. And like always, the rich seem to get treated better by the justice system? Fees/fines have never been so high. Only the wealthy can afford to commit crimes? Oh, and they do run afoul of so many laws. Look at all the young scholars who are living at home. Many living at a family home that will probally not be passed down because mom and dad will be forced into a reverse mortgage. In tech--yes, the party is fierce. I do notice the new cars. I notice the carefree attitude. There's a liberal air of "Hay--it's just hard work? I'm just more clever than that guy?". I hope it all lasts. I guarantee so many of you will be right here wondering what the hell happened, on a old device? I think a new version of the punk movement will pop up. The hippie movement won't be the joke it currently is. Hell--the denial might protect a lot of you when the money dries up?

IanCal 9y ago

2008 is a decade, not five. But more importantly, what statistics do you actually have for this?