2 ms·

Are you seriously attempting to show that nazis aren't bad? Serious question. What have I been falsely indoctrinated about? What should I have been exposed t

Are you seriously attempting to show that nazis aren't bad? Serious question. What have I been falsely indoctrinated about? What should I have been exposed to as an alternate view on nazis? Do history books count as "indoctrination"? To your other point, I would imagine showing aliens concentration camps would make them recoil in horror, yes.

HeyWolfey 9y ago
You live in a world where the permanent scare tactics utilized to sustain the Cold War (which were originally developed during WW2) have now been moved over to the forever-nebulous "War on Terror". The enemies can be endlessly expanded now. You have no other baseline to even compare against. You'll be chasing war propaganda boogeyman for the rest of your life and you won't even consider the fact that you are doing it WHILE you do it. Nazis weren't the only ones using concentration camps. The people who ACTUALLY paid the real blood and treasure cost to defeat Nazi Germany (Soviet Russia) utilized such camps as well. This throws your juvenile mythology of "Good vs. Evil" obsession out the window since anything Nazi is automatically ultra-evil, ergo, anyone fighting it is ultra-good. Soviet Russia even expelled Jews. Wait... lemme guess... the actual people who actually killed and enslaved actual Nazis are evil now, too... right? Funny how the enemy list just magically grows longer by the second with nothing more than a hand wave. You obsess over moral games. That's what you've been indoctrinated to do. And you don't even see it. According to this idiotic game, everyone who isn't you will eventually be designated as a Nazi or an indirect supporter of one. Only when you are labeled as a Nazi for someone elses expediency will you realize the flaw in your approach. But I'm sure you think that's not possible. You're a good citizen, right? Lemme know when someone deepfakes your face into a "Nazi" rally and sends the video to your professional circle. That's how easy it is to take your moral preening and twist it against you.
tomhoward 9y ago
I'm not trying to defend/support the GP/sibling commenter, but rather to provide a more sober perspective for you to contemplate. The issue is not whether Nazis were/are bad. You can feel safe in the assumption that all but an extreme fringe minority are in consensus that Nazi philosophies and practices were horrific beyond comprehension. What we should contemplate and discuss, however, is what were the economic and cultural conditions that led to the rise of Nazism in Europe in the 30s, and how it came to be accepted, supported and enabled/served by such a large proportion of the population. Only by fully understanding these issues can we take effective measures to ensure such a movement never takes hold ever again, and ensure that we as individuals are equipped with the strength and judgement to avoid succumbing to populist bigotry any time we see it.
zaarn 9y ago
There is fairly good moral consensus that nazis are bad so it's probably not wrong to say "Nazis are bad" in most contexts. But, IMO, morality and ethics are subjective, so for a minority of people who don't share this consensus, yes, nazis aren't bad. An alien race that has constructed a feudal slave society might not object to concentration camps at all. They might love the idea. Nazis, from a purely objective standpoint, are not bad. But not good either. What they did is facts. Only when the human observer comes in, ie, you and me, we introduce morality and you and me both think that those things are bad and should not be done. Or how Death expressed it in Discworld; "take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy"
- ninkendo 9y ago
  Your response seems to just take the word “bad” out of the English language altogether. Your point seems to be “badness is subjective and therefore invalid.” Would an amended statement make more sense? “The nazis were bad to the degree that badness is a thing.” Although it seems a bit silly to phrase things that way. To the degree that silliness is a thing of course.
  - zaarn 9y ago
    Badness is subjective, yes. Doesn't mean it's invalid, you can still hold onto subjective notions just fine. Personally I believe that my notion of bad, good, evil and angels is purely subjective. Doesn't mean they have less value. I merely acknowledge the value is subjective. Like how a childhood toy holds sentimental value.

HeyWolfey 9y ago

You live in a world where the permanent scare tactics utilized to sustain the Cold War (which were originally developed during WW2) have now been moved over to the forever-nebulous "War on Terror". The enemies can be endlessly expanded now. You have no other baseline to even compare against. You'll be chasing war propaganda boogeyman for the rest of your life and you won't even consider the fact that you are doing it WHILE you do it. Nazis weren't the only ones using concentration camps. The people who ACTUALLY paid the real blood and treasure cost to defeat Nazi Germany (Soviet Russia) utilized such camps as well. This throws your juvenile mythology of "Good vs. Evil" obsession out the window since anything Nazi is automatically ultra-evil, ergo, anyone fighting it is ultra-good. Soviet Russia even expelled Jews. Wait... lemme guess... the actual people who actually killed and enslaved actual Nazis are evil now, too... right? Funny how the enemy list just magically grows longer by the second with nothing more than a hand wave. You obsess over moral games. That's what you've been indoctrinated to do. And you don't even see it. According to this idiotic game, everyone who isn't you will eventually be designated as a Nazi or an indirect supporter of one. Only when you are labeled as a Nazi for someone elses expediency will you realize the flaw in your approach. But I'm sure you think that's not possible. You're a good citizen, right? Lemme know when someone deepfakes your face into a "Nazi" rally and sends the video to your professional circle. That's how easy it is to take your moral preening and twist it against you.

tomhoward 9y ago

I'm not trying to defend/support the GP/sibling commenter, but rather to provide a more sober perspective for you to contemplate. The issue is not whether Nazis were/are bad. You can feel safe in the assumption that all but an extreme fringe minority are in consensus that Nazi philosophies and practices were horrific beyond comprehension. What we should contemplate and discuss, however, is what were the economic and cultural conditions that led to the rise of Nazism in Europe in the 30s, and how it came to be accepted, supported and enabled/served by such a large proportion of the population. Only by fully understanding these issues can we take effective measures to ensure such a movement never takes hold ever again, and ensure that we as individuals are equipped with the strength and judgement to avoid succumbing to populist bigotry any time we see it.

zaarn 9y ago

There is fairly good moral consensus that nazis are bad so it's probably not wrong to say "Nazis are bad" in most contexts. But, IMO, morality and ethics are subjective, so for a minority of people who don't share this consensus, yes, nazis aren't bad. An alien race that has constructed a feudal slave society might not object to concentration camps at all. They might love the idea. Nazis, from a purely objective standpoint, are not bad. But not good either. What they did is facts. Only when the human observer comes in, ie, you and me, we introduce morality and you and me both think that those things are bad and should not be done. Or how Death expressed it in Discworld; "take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy"

ninkendo 9y ago
Your response seems to just take the word “bad” out of the English language altogether. Your point seems to be “badness is subjective and therefore invalid.” Would an amended statement make more sense? “The nazis were bad to the degree that badness is a thing.” Although it seems a bit silly to phrase things that way. To the degree that silliness is a thing of course.
- zaarn 9y ago
  Badness is subjective, yes. Doesn't mean it's invalid, you can still hold onto subjective notions just fine. Personally I believe that my notion of bad, good, evil and angels is purely subjective. Doesn't mean they have less value. I merely acknowledge the value is subjective. Like how a childhood toy holds sentimental value.