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It’s interesting how positive psychology is coming under attack from all directions, and I think reflects many of the shortcomings that have been festering in t

It’s interesting how positive psychology is coming under attack from all directions, and I think reflects many of the shortcomings that have been festering in the field. From the very liberal / progressive side, Barbara Ehrenreich (author of “Nickel and Dimed”) has been making the case for the last 10 years that positive psychology is simply the last ditch effort of capitalists to “maintain morale” while Western living standards triumphantly continue their 5th decade in decline. From a conservative side, a lot of religious leaders have made the case that positive psychology is simply an attempt by secularists/humanists to dethrone the notion of morals, suffering (a big thing in Christianity) etc. and put human pleasure as the highest of all goals.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
IanCal 9y ago
> while Western living standards triumphantly continue their 5th decade in decline. Are living standards really lower continually over the last 50 years? At least in the UK I think that absolute poverty is down over a shorter time, median household incomes at up significantly, life expectancy is up. What's continually gone down?
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  All of those things for white men, at least since 2008. Which you can read either way (oy, I must have karma to burn?). On the one hand, the anti-capitalist left in the US has historically had a contingent with racial undertones. On the other hand, literally every other group's station was improved at least in part through government mechanisms (equal protection under law, civil rights, etc.) rather than market mechanisms.
  - OrganicMSG 9y ago
    By the way, it turns out people have been fucking all along and that there actually aren't any black or white people. Never were. Someone made the whole thing up and it got a wee bit out of hand. Thought you might like to know, as it might save you an awful lot of time and worry.
    - shard972 9y ago
      What is the claim you are trying to make? I don't see any sarcastic "/s" present so I assume you are being serious. Are you saying that there are none to little genetic/biological differences between different races?
      - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
        I think he's saying that "races" are a made up category and theres just people. I happen to agree, there is nothing special about some gene pool with an evocative label.
        shard972 9y ago
        To believe that you would have to ignore the current scientific evidence which is becoming stronger and stronger with the acceleration in our understanding of the human genome. Even without any of that evidence though, we still have books like the bell curve which people have tried hard to debunk but so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked.
        tensor_rank_0 9y ago
        > current scientific evidence there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. > so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked. ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category?
        shard972 9y ago
        > there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. Huh? Race is defined by a combination of genetics in the form of phenotypes and culture. I don't see the circular paradox here. > another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. But we can? We can say that Chinese are more likely to be shorter than africans. That asians are more likely to have black hair than blonde hair or that africans are more likely to have higher testosterone than european whites or indians. Ask any doctor or pharmacist and they can list you a few ways they are taught about how to treat people of different races differently because of biological differences. We can even go further and say for instance that ashkenazi jews have a higher average IQ compared to Africans due to a large part their genetic differences and not purely environmental reasons. The bell curve which was published a few decades ago proves many of these kind of claims so I don't know where you get this idea that we cannot determine anything useful from race. > ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category? I gave a definition previously which is pretty accepted, for how you test for a race the answer is that's pretty easy, 99% of the time you can just ask someone and they will tell you. We can prove this through cluster analysis, where you take a sample set of people and first ask them what race they are from a set number of selections. They then can read SNPs from each of the participants and hand that to a computer without the self reported data the people provided. What you see is that even with 100 random SNP's you have a near perfect correlation between what people say their race is and the computer correctly grouping them into the race they chose. If you want to see some sources, here is an article that links off and summarizes the studies I am referencing http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329...
  - PopsiclePete 9y ago
    As a pasty white man myself, life has been improving steadily since 2008. My income I think has doubled since then, I’ve lost about 20lbs of fat and I’ve picked up some cool new hobbies! True, I did have to get a relevant degree and not be an idiot at work to advance, but life is pretty good overall. Now if you mean that being a White Man by itself isn’t enough anymore to get you a cushy life style, then yes, it’s not. Welcome to the place everyone else has been in since forever.
    - icantdrive55 9y ago
      There's a lot of people who weren't invited to the party. The "able bodied, but aren't working number is close to an all time high. I believe it's higher than when women stayed at home while hubby worked? I have never seen this amount of homelessness. I see daily. Im becoming too hardened to the suffering. People used to have the privilege of having two shitty jobs. Now--those jobs are coveted, as careers, by hard working immigrants--that see nothing wrong with fitting six people in a 10 x 12 foot room. Look at the jobs on Craigslist. Work with us for three hours a day, or on call? So many are just rediculious. Buy a four door, late model car, we approve of, and go into a slow debt death. Or, the amount of thieving bastards who know they can get away with terrible work conditions, and pay that makes showing up debatable. Crime is down. Cameras are everywhere. People/business don't use cash like they used too. Surveillance is everywhere. And like always, the rich seem to get treated better by the justice system? Fees/fines have never been so high. Only the wealthy can afford to commit crimes? Oh, and they do run afoul of so many laws. Look at all the young scholars who are living at home. Many living at a family home that will probally not be passed down because mom and dad will be forced into a reverse mortgage. In tech--yes, the party is fierce. I do notice the new cars. I notice the carefree attitude. There's a liberal air of "Hay--it's just hard work? I'm just more clever than that guy?". I hope it all lasts. I guarantee so many of you will be right here wondering what the hell happened, on a old device? I think a new version of the punk movement will pop up. The hippie movement won't be the joke it currently is. Hell--the denial might protect a lot of you when the money dries up?
  - IanCal 9y ago
    2008 is a decade, not five. But more importantly, what statistics do you actually have for this?
meri_dian 9y ago
Ha, more people live better now, both absolute numbers and percentage of global population, than ever before in human history.
- shard972 9y ago
  Tell that to the crackhead living in the rustbelt with no job. I know you can make the stats look like living standards are on the up and up but you would be ignoring the huge issue of income inequality which is root cause of the political instability the west is experiencing. The OP's point in this context is spot on, positive psychology not only has nothing to offer this growing lower class but it's more and more looking like it's a net negative to them.
  - meri_dian 9y ago
    Just because income inequality is up from the 50's doesn't mean people are worse off. For $70 a month an entire family can have access to the internet, Netflix and Spotify. Food is cheaper, more plentiful and comes in more variety now. Healthcare is much better and more people have access to more treatments than ever before. You really could go on and on. Even if real wages have stagnated for the working class, modern technology and the convenience that comes with it has made life soooo much better for the large majority of people. The can buy more with their wages, stagnant or not.
    - lucideer 9y ago
      > Food is cheaper, more plentiful and comes in more variety now. There is more variety, with more of a spread of quality over price points. Lower quality food is cheaper, higher quality food is less accessible. > Healthcare is much better and more people have access to more treatments than ever before. Healthcare is better if you can get it. Yes, there are more treatments available, for some, but there are more without access.
  - IanCal 9y ago
    > Tell that to the crackhead living in the rustbelt with no job. People addicted to drugs or without jobs are not new issues. > I know you can make the stats look like living standards are on the up and up That's a bit unreasonable, suggesting any and all statistics that disagree with your view are not trustworthy. > you would be ignoring the huge issue of income inequality which is root cause of the political instability the west is experiencing. Inequality and living standards are significantly different things. Do you have statistics to support the 5 decades of falling living standards claim?
lordgrenville 9y ago
Side note: TIL that Barbara Ehrenreich has a Ph.D in cellular immunology from Rockefeller University.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

IanCal 9y ago

> while Western living standards triumphantly continue their 5th decade in decline. Are living standards really lower continually over the last 50 years? At least in the UK I think that absolute poverty is down over a shorter time, median household incomes at up significantly, life expectancy is up. What's continually gone down?

throwawayjava 9y ago
All of those things for white men, at least since 2008. Which you can read either way (oy, I must have karma to burn?). On the one hand, the anti-capitalist left in the US has historically had a contingent with racial undertones. On the other hand, literally every other group's station was improved at least in part through government mechanisms (equal protection under law, civil rights, etc.) rather than market mechanisms.
- OrganicMSG 9y ago
  By the way, it turns out people have been fucking all along and that there actually aren't any black or white people. Never were. Someone made the whole thing up and it got a wee bit out of hand. Thought you might like to know, as it might save you an awful lot of time and worry.
  - shard972 9y ago
    What is the claim you are trying to make? I don't see any sarcastic "/s" present so I assume you are being serious. Are you saying that there are none to little genetic/biological differences between different races?
    - tensor_rank_0 9y ago
      I think he's saying that "races" are a made up category and theres just people. I happen to agree, there is nothing special about some gene pool with an evocative label.
      - shard972 9y ago
        To believe that you would have to ignore the current scientific evidence which is becoming stronger and stronger with the acceleration in our understanding of the human genome. Even without any of that evidence though, we still have books like the bell curve which people have tried hard to debunk but so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked.
        tensor_rank_0 9y ago
        > current scientific evidence there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. > so far the key points made in the book about the genetic existence of race have not even come close to being debunked. ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category?
        shard972 9y ago
        > there is no evidence for the existence of a race that does not rely on referencing the idea of a race. the idea is self-referential. to understand this, you must understand philosophy. Huh? Race is defined by a combination of genetics in the form of phenotypes and culture. I don't see the circular paradox here. > another way of saying this is that assigning a person to a race doesn't give us any more information than the information we used to classify him in the first place. But we can? We can say that Chinese are more likely to be shorter than africans. That asians are more likely to have black hair than blonde hair or that africans are more likely to have higher testosterone than european whites or indians. Ask any doctor or pharmacist and they can list you a few ways they are taught about how to treat people of different races differently because of biological differences. We can even go further and say for instance that ashkenazi jews have a higher average IQ compared to Africans due to a large part their genetic differences and not purely environmental reasons. The bell curve which was published a few decades ago proves many of these kind of claims so I don't know where you get this idea that we cannot determine anything useful from race. > ok, I'll bite: what defines a race? what test do I apply to a specimen in order to sort him/her into a race category? I gave a definition previously which is pretty accepted, for how you test for a race the answer is that's pretty easy, 99% of the time you can just ask someone and they will tell you. We can prove this through cluster analysis, where you take a sample set of people and first ask them what race they are from a set number of selections. They then can read SNPs from each of the participants and hand that to a computer without the self reported data the people provided. What you see is that even with 100 random SNP's you have a near perfect correlation between what people say their race is and the computer correctly grouping them into the race they chose. If you want to see some sources, here is an article that links off and summarizes the studies I am referencing http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329/ http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/329...
- PopsiclePete 9y ago
  As a pasty white man myself, life has been improving steadily since 2008. My income I think has doubled since then, I’ve lost about 20lbs of fat and I’ve picked up some cool new hobbies! True, I did have to get a relevant degree and not be an idiot at work to advance, but life is pretty good overall. Now if you mean that being a White Man by itself isn’t enough anymore to get you a cushy life style, then yes, it’s not. Welcome to the place everyone else has been in since forever.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    There's a lot of people who weren't invited to the party. The "able bodied, but aren't working number is close to an all time high. I believe it's higher than when women stayed at home while hubby worked? I have never seen this amount of homelessness. I see daily. Im becoming too hardened to the suffering. People used to have the privilege of having two shitty jobs. Now--those jobs are coveted, as careers, by hard working immigrants--that see nothing wrong with fitting six people in a 10 x 12 foot room. Look at the jobs on Craigslist. Work with us for three hours a day, or on call? So many are just rediculious. Buy a four door, late model car, we approve of, and go into a slow debt death. Or, the amount of thieving bastards who know they can get away with terrible work conditions, and pay that makes showing up debatable. Crime is down. Cameras are everywhere. People/business don't use cash like they used too. Surveillance is everywhere. And like always, the rich seem to get treated better by the justice system? Fees/fines have never been so high. Only the wealthy can afford to commit crimes? Oh, and they do run afoul of so many laws. Look at all the young scholars who are living at home. Many living at a family home that will probally not be passed down because mom and dad will be forced into a reverse mortgage. In tech--yes, the party is fierce. I do notice the new cars. I notice the carefree attitude. There's a liberal air of "Hay--it's just hard work? I'm just more clever than that guy?". I hope it all lasts. I guarantee so many of you will be right here wondering what the hell happened, on a old device? I think a new version of the punk movement will pop up. The hippie movement won't be the joke it currently is. Hell--the denial might protect a lot of you when the money dries up?
- IanCal 9y ago
  2008 is a decade, not five. But more importantly, what statistics do you actually have for this?

meri_dian 9y ago

Ha, more people live better now, both absolute numbers and percentage of global population, than ever before in human history.

shard972 9y ago
Tell that to the crackhead living in the rustbelt with no job. I know you can make the stats look like living standards are on the up and up but you would be ignoring the huge issue of income inequality which is root cause of the political instability the west is experiencing. The OP's point in this context is spot on, positive psychology not only has nothing to offer this growing lower class but it's more and more looking like it's a net negative to them.
- meri_dian 9y ago
  Just because income inequality is up from the 50's doesn't mean people are worse off. For $70 a month an entire family can have access to the internet, Netflix and Spotify. Food is cheaper, more plentiful and comes in more variety now. Healthcare is much better and more people have access to more treatments than ever before. You really could go on and on. Even if real wages have stagnated for the working class, modern technology and the convenience that comes with it has made life soooo much better for the large majority of people. The can buy more with their wages, stagnant or not.
  - lucideer 9y ago
    > Food is cheaper, more plentiful and comes in more variety now. There is more variety, with more of a spread of quality over price points. Lower quality food is cheaper, higher quality food is less accessible. > Healthcare is much better and more people have access to more treatments than ever before. Healthcare is better if you can get it. Yes, there are more treatments available, for some, but there are more without access.
- IanCal 9y ago
  > Tell that to the crackhead living in the rustbelt with no job. People addicted to drugs or without jobs are not new issues. > I know you can make the stats look like living standards are on the up and up That's a bit unreasonable, suggesting any and all statistics that disagree with your view are not trustworthy. > you would be ignoring the huge issue of income inequality which is root cause of the political instability the west is experiencing. Inequality and living standards are significantly different things. Do you have statistics to support the 5 decades of falling living standards claim?

lordgrenville 9y ago

Side note: TIL that Barbara Ehrenreich has a Ph.D in cellular immunology from Rockefeller University.