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Only you can stop the very dangerous people! Consider the fact that you are a byproduct of the endless programming and propaganda behind the War on Terror. If

Only you can stop the very dangerous people! Consider the fact that you are a byproduct of the endless programming and propaganda behind the War on Terror. If you have no doubts on that subject, YOU are wrong.

ninkendo 9y ago
So, I'm endlessly programmed, therefore nazis are good? You can critique the way we acquire information and use that to cast doubt on conclusions. But you definitely can not use those criticisms to add validity to any conclusions either. So I don't see how this world view does anybody any good. At some point, you see nazis, you say "those are bad", and you just know you're right about it. In that sense, morals are a true compass when faced with endless doubt that can creep in if you want to be maximally scientific about things.
- psyc 9y ago
  "Life is complicated and nobody wants to believe it. I suppose you might call it the infantilism of society. There is deep infantilism in the culture, in terms of the way they think, they can’t bear complexity. That you have to think, that there are gradations, nobody wants that. They want to be told, or they want to say: ‘This is good, this is bad’. Anything that in any way undermines that is not to be borne." - Stephen Fry No pressing need to point out the obvious criticisms. Fry was already roundly criticized up and down for saying it. But it has become my favorite quote about the way people talk about ideologies.
  - watwut 9y ago
    I goal of killing and mistreating people of other races is morally wrong. You may mock me as someone who cant bear complexity for that, but that is just that - attempt to make me feel ashamed so that they have it easier.
    - psyc 9y ago
      I agree with you! But you've cherry-picked an issue that the majority of HN users agree with, so... In this case, I would say that the nuance lies not in whether it is good or bad, but in understanding the constellation of factors that would lead someone to hold the objectionable viewpoint. Reducing the issue down to the question of whether it's good or bad is itself the simplistic mentality that Fry was very explicitly criticizing.
      - watwut 9y ago
        I cherry picked issue whole thread started with. That is not cherry picking, that is staying on topic. There are plenty of reasons why one would be nazi. One is fear, other ressentment yet other that you was raised that way by parents. And yet others grown to be cruel, aggresive and sadistic and nazism makes them feel like it is good thing. However, being clear on whether it is good or bad or even dangerous and what is cost of they get their way is practically speaking super important. Understanding that is more important then understanding poor them and having emphaty toward them. Otherwise they will use you emphaty to convert you to their case, bit by bit. It is not simplistic, it is values that you need to keep in mind lest you lose the lm.
        psyc 9y ago
        Here, you are exploring nuance. I doubt it will cost anyone their life. > However, being clear on whether it is good or bad or even dangerous and what is cost of they get their way is practically speaking super important. Yes, it's important. It's important that children learn this, or sort it out by very early adulthood. That is what is meant by infantile. In my opinion, this is not a serious problem for the vast majority of civil folk. I do not understand the value in grown adults belaboring it. It's baby food. Eat grownup food.
        watwut 9y ago
        Lol, I am not. AM not allowing nuance to confuse important points. Actually, grown ups have bigger problem keeping this straigt. Grown ups made originally nazism happen after all. Grown ups dont want to insult nazi because of career or just trying to look nice and rational. Then again, young German soldiers were more cruel then old ones I read in historical accounts. I don't know what you mean by eating grown up food here. There were quite a few unapologetic grown ups in history who were quite inflexible in their values. Maybe it is another attempt to shame that has nothing to do with what actual grown ups do, for better or worst.
- HeyWolfey 9y ago
  They are bad because you were told for decades they are bad. The fact I even have to explain that is confirmation at how complete the indoctrination is. Are you seriously attempting to take a morally absolutist position, as if showing an image of a Nazi to aliens would automatically make them recoil in horror as if that particular combination of attire and behavior managed to stumble upon some absolute fixed point of sensory perception? You can't be serious. How long have you been seven years old?
  - ninkendo 9y ago
    Are you seriously attempting to show that nazis aren't bad? Serious question. What have I been falsely indoctrinated about? What should I have been exposed to as an alternate view on nazis? Do history books count as "indoctrination"? To your other point, I would imagine showing aliens concentration camps would make them recoil in horror, yes.
    - HeyWolfey 9y ago
      You live in a world where the permanent scare tactics utilized to sustain the Cold War (which were originally developed during WW2) have now been moved over to the forever-nebulous "War on Terror". The enemies can be endlessly expanded now. You have no other baseline to even compare against. You'll be chasing war propaganda boogeyman for the rest of your life and you won't even consider the fact that you are doing it WHILE you do it. Nazis weren't the only ones using concentration camps. The people who ACTUALLY paid the real blood and treasure cost to defeat Nazi Germany (Soviet Russia) utilized such camps as well. This throws your juvenile mythology of "Good vs. Evil" obsession out the window since anything Nazi is automatically ultra-evil, ergo, anyone fighting it is ultra-good. Soviet Russia even expelled Jews. Wait... lemme guess... the actual people who actually killed and enslaved actual Nazis are evil now, too... right? Funny how the enemy list just magically grows longer by the second with nothing more than a hand wave. You obsess over moral games. That's what you've been indoctrinated to do. And you don't even see it. According to this idiotic game, everyone who isn't you will eventually be designated as a Nazi or an indirect supporter of one. Only when you are labeled as a Nazi for someone elses expediency will you realize the flaw in your approach. But I'm sure you think that's not possible. You're a good citizen, right? Lemme know when someone deepfakes your face into a "Nazi" rally and sends the video to your professional circle. That's how easy it is to take your moral preening and twist it against you.
AlexCoventry 9y ago
"Consider the fact that you are a byproduct of the endless programming and propaganda behind the War on Terror." Can you expand on that? It sounds like it may contain a very interesting perspective, but I'm not quite sure what you mean.
- HeyWolfey 9y ago
  Here's a reply that helps, but it was flagged because it doesn't meet the approval of the "Right Side of History"(tm) committee that runs HackerNews. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16518364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16518364
  - dang 9y ago
    Actually users flagged it, because it obviously breaks the site guidelines. It doesn't matter what ideology you're battling for or against. It's the genre of ideological flamewar itself that's damaging here, and therefore unwelcome, and therefore will get you banned if you keep doing it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - HeyWolfey 9y ago
      Those rules are disingenuous, extensively ideologically partisan, and do not reflect the human condition at all. It's akin to taping a warning sign on a Skinner box that says, "Do not react" while the experimenters are perpetual baffled when subjects twitch when delivered a jolt of electricity. By "the users", do you mean four or so hyperpartisan ideological zealots who exploit your rules to get their rush of moral supremacy by downvoting instead of commenting to refute the points? Because downvoting is technically political activity and your rules totally allow that all day long.

ninkendo 9y ago

So, I'm endlessly programmed, therefore nazis are good? You can critique the way we acquire information and use that to cast doubt on conclusions. But you definitely can not use those criticisms to add validity to any conclusions either. So I don't see how this world view does anybody any good. At some point, you see nazis, you say "those are bad", and you just know you're right about it. In that sense, morals are a true compass when faced with endless doubt that can creep in if you want to be maximally scientific about things.

psyc 9y ago
"Life is complicated and nobody wants to believe it. I suppose you might call it the infantilism of society. There is deep infantilism in the culture, in terms of the way they think, they can’t bear complexity. That you have to think, that there are gradations, nobody wants that. They want to be told, or they want to say: ‘This is good, this is bad’. Anything that in any way undermines that is not to be borne." - Stephen Fry No pressing need to point out the obvious criticisms. Fry was already roundly criticized up and down for saying it. But it has become my favorite quote about the way people talk about ideologies.
- watwut 9y ago
  I goal of killing and mistreating people of other races is morally wrong. You may mock me as someone who cant bear complexity for that, but that is just that - attempt to make me feel ashamed so that they have it easier.
  - psyc 9y ago
    I agree with you! But you've cherry-picked an issue that the majority of HN users agree with, so... In this case, I would say that the nuance lies not in whether it is good or bad, but in understanding the constellation of factors that would lead someone to hold the objectionable viewpoint. Reducing the issue down to the question of whether it's good or bad is itself the simplistic mentality that Fry was very explicitly criticizing.
    - watwut 9y ago
      I cherry picked issue whole thread started with. That is not cherry picking, that is staying on topic. There are plenty of reasons why one would be nazi. One is fear, other ressentment yet other that you was raised that way by parents. And yet others grown to be cruel, aggresive and sadistic and nazism makes them feel like it is good thing. However, being clear on whether it is good or bad or even dangerous and what is cost of they get their way is practically speaking super important. Understanding that is more important then understanding poor them and having emphaty toward them. Otherwise they will use you emphaty to convert you to their case, bit by bit. It is not simplistic, it is values that you need to keep in mind lest you lose the lm.
      - psyc 9y ago
        Here, you are exploring nuance. I doubt it will cost anyone their life. > However, being clear on whether it is good or bad or even dangerous and what is cost of they get their way is practically speaking super important. Yes, it's important. It's important that children learn this, or sort it out by very early adulthood. That is what is meant by infantile. In my opinion, this is not a serious problem for the vast majority of civil folk. I do not understand the value in grown adults belaboring it. It's baby food. Eat grownup food.
        watwut 9y ago
        Lol, I am not. AM not allowing nuance to confuse important points. Actually, grown ups have bigger problem keeping this straigt. Grown ups made originally nazism happen after all. Grown ups dont want to insult nazi because of career or just trying to look nice and rational. Then again, young German soldiers were more cruel then old ones I read in historical accounts. I don't know what you mean by eating grown up food here. There were quite a few unapologetic grown ups in history who were quite inflexible in their values. Maybe it is another attempt to shame that has nothing to do with what actual grown ups do, for better or worst.
HeyWolfey 9y ago
They are bad because you were told for decades they are bad. The fact I even have to explain that is confirmation at how complete the indoctrination is. Are you seriously attempting to take a morally absolutist position, as if showing an image of a Nazi to aliens would automatically make them recoil in horror as if that particular combination of attire and behavior managed to stumble upon some absolute fixed point of sensory perception? You can't be serious. How long have you been seven years old?
- ninkendo 9y ago
  Are you seriously attempting to show that nazis aren't bad? Serious question. What have I been falsely indoctrinated about? What should I have been exposed to as an alternate view on nazis? Do history books count as "indoctrination"? To your other point, I would imagine showing aliens concentration camps would make them recoil in horror, yes.
  - HeyWolfey 9y ago
    You live in a world where the permanent scare tactics utilized to sustain the Cold War (which were originally developed during WW2) have now been moved over to the forever-nebulous "War on Terror". The enemies can be endlessly expanded now. You have no other baseline to even compare against. You'll be chasing war propaganda boogeyman for the rest of your life and you won't even consider the fact that you are doing it WHILE you do it. Nazis weren't the only ones using concentration camps. The people who ACTUALLY paid the real blood and treasure cost to defeat Nazi Germany (Soviet Russia) utilized such camps as well. This throws your juvenile mythology of "Good vs. Evil" obsession out the window since anything Nazi is automatically ultra-evil, ergo, anyone fighting it is ultra-good. Soviet Russia even expelled Jews. Wait... lemme guess... the actual people who actually killed and enslaved actual Nazis are evil now, too... right? Funny how the enemy list just magically grows longer by the second with nothing more than a hand wave. You obsess over moral games. That's what you've been indoctrinated to do. And you don't even see it. According to this idiotic game, everyone who isn't you will eventually be designated as a Nazi or an indirect supporter of one. Only when you are labeled as a Nazi for someone elses expediency will you realize the flaw in your approach. But I'm sure you think that's not possible. You're a good citizen, right? Lemme know when someone deepfakes your face into a "Nazi" rally and sends the video to your professional circle. That's how easy it is to take your moral preening and twist it against you.

AlexCoventry 9y ago

"Consider the fact that you are a byproduct of the endless programming and propaganda behind the War on Terror." Can you expand on that? It sounds like it may contain a very interesting perspective, but I'm not quite sure what you mean.

HeyWolfey 9y ago
Here's a reply that helps, but it was flagged because it doesn't meet the approval of the "Right Side of History"(tm) committee that runs HackerNews. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16518364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16518364
- dang 9y ago
  Actually users flagged it, because it obviously breaks the site guidelines. It doesn't matter what ideology you're battling for or against. It's the genre of ideological flamewar itself that's damaging here, and therefore unwelcome, and therefore will get you banned if you keep doing it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - HeyWolfey 9y ago
    Those rules are disingenuous, extensively ideologically partisan, and do not reflect the human condition at all. It's akin to taping a warning sign on a Skinner box that says, "Do not react" while the experimenters are perpetual baffled when subjects twitch when delivered a jolt of electricity. By "the users", do you mean four or so hyperpartisan ideological zealots who exploit your rules to get their rush of moral supremacy by downvoting instead of commenting to refute the points? Because downvoting is technically political activity and your rules totally allow that all day long.