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After I moved back from the US to Germany after having lived and worked there for almost a decade I never got a car. I walk (that's the #1 mode of transport by

After I moved back from the US to Germany after having lived and worked there for almost a decade I never got a car. I walk (that's the #1 mode of transport by far), I bike (#2), I use public transport (rarely). In the US I drove enough to last a lifetime, I spent way too much time of my life in cars. The worst of owning a car is that I have to spend so much time and energy on that... "thing". Where yo I park it? Is it clean? Does it need an inspection? Insurance? It's like owning a horse but without the benefits (of a living companion). I use the horse not because of the transport analogy but because it's big and requires lots of your time and resources too (food, insurance, medical expenses, housing it,...).

vetinari 9y ago
Frankly, none of the things you mentioned as a hurdle I see as such: Where to park it? In garage, obviously. Is it clean? Mostly yes, washing is a matter of 30 minutes. Does it need an inspection? Once in two years. Insurance? Just like another bill, you can pay it over Internet too. However: Do you live alone? If no, how do you do your shopping, for example? Do you have kids? If yes, how do you transport them?
- foepys 9y ago
  > Where to park it? In garage, obviously. Most people in Germany don't have a garage. Apart from that: the other part of the question is "where do I park my car when I'm not at home?", which is about 50% of the time. Inner cities in Germany don't have giant parking spots but narrow streets with parallel parking on the street with parking fees.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Where do you go, what's on the other side of your ride? At work; we have a parking lot. When visiting business partners, they have visitor parking. Shops also do have parking. Even the small gym that I visit has a parking lot (small one, but they don't want to lose customers after all). There are not many reasons to go to inner city, just for pubs. And there's no way you can go to pub and then drive anyway. All the small shops disappeared from the city centre years ago, because the patrons had a problem getting there. If you want the cheapest, but still clean and representable office space, you go into the city centre, into the pedestrian zone. Just don't expect many visits there, or even a fast internet connection for your office. Yes, I do live in Europe. Not in DE, though.
    - foepys 9y ago
      > All the small shops disappeared from the city centre years ago, because the patrons had a problem getting there. Luckily in Germany there are quite a lot pedestrian zones ("Fußgängerzonen") for shopping where motorized vehicles aren't even allowed and small businesses can thrive there. Cars have to park somewhere else and this can often become a problem. Parking is also quite expensive in major cities with parking fees up to 3€/hour. Building more parking lots into the inner cities is impossible and the fees are high to keep people moving. > Shops also do have parking. In Germany malls aren't very common. Inner cities are mostly mixed business and residential with shops on the lowest floor and apartments above.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  Many Europeans live in inner cities. Shops are nearby. Kids walk, take public transport or ride bikes like the rest of us. Why choose to live in such a way were a car is necessary? The amount of time, money and effort that is saved by working, eating, sleeping and generally living in the same place is well worth any added housing costs.
  - zhdc1 9y ago
    This is also true for a growing number of Americans. When I lived in DC (I now live in Europe), the worst thing about getting an otherwise beneficial job lateral was the need to get a car. And this comes from someone who enjoys driving.
  - achamayou 9y ago
    Many, but not as many as the HN crowd thinks. In France, 80%+ households have at least one car, and 70%ish of commutes to work happen by car. It’s easy to forget if you live in the centre of the capital city of course.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Yes. Western Europe actually has more cars per capita than the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/its-official-western-europeans-have-more-cars-per-person-than-americans/261108/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/it... That said, I know many people who only use them occasionally. Gas is expensive here.
      - achamayou 9y ago
        I do too, but I mostly know people who live in a city center, or a close suburb. I saw the statistics about the various commute mechanisms recently, and it was an interesting reminder that my intuition about this was way off (I would have guessed 50%+ public transport, when it's really 70%+ car).
- zhdc1 9y ago
  Everyone of those is a hurdle for those who live in a western or central European city. Where do you park your car? On the street, in a designated parking zone, which happens to be a five to ten minute walk from where you live (because the handful of spots closer to your apartment are already taken). Where do you wash your car? Not in your driveway (because you don't have one) or on the street in front of your apartment, because that's - quite frankly - illegal. So, you have to take it to a car wash, which is inconvenient. Car inspections... well, on that, I can only speak for Germany and Switzerland. In our case, the engine bay and undercarriage needs to be thoroughly washed before going for an inspection, any sign of rust is an automatic failure, and the criteria overall are much stricter than in the US and UK. America (or even just suburban America) and other car-friendly Anglo-Saxon countries are more of an exception than a fair representation of how the average person relates to owning and driving a car.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    I do live in Central Europe. However, the people who consider that hurdle are usually young people, living alone. Their focus now is to enjoy the life, travel, socialising, etc. In a few years, they will have partner, kids, and they will find out, that the car saves them a lot of time. It they can do in 10 minutes, what used to take 45? Sure, bring it on. That's exactly the reason why I and my similarly aged friends got the cars: the day has only 24 hours, and compared to that, car-related costs are only an expense, and quite a small ones in the bigger scheme of things.
- zerostar07 9y ago
  Parking in us vs europe is a huge difference. Not that it’s easy in either
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Depends where in US, it's not all roses. I would not enjoy trying to park in south Manhattan, without having a rented space. I live in Europe, though.
- probably_wrong 9y ago
  Regarding shopping, you get one of these: https://www.amazon.de/Andersen-Royal-Shopper-Wismar-schwarz/dp/B018KH0A5E https://www.amazon.de/Andersen-Royal-Shopper-Wismar-schwarz/... It's also very common to have a reusable shopping bag in your everyday carry, and/or to carry your groceries in your backpack.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    I did that when I was younger. Nowadays, we do weekly shopping. No way I would do that with public transport.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  A garage is a quite expensive proposition - in the dense cities (where much of Europeans live) they simply aren't a thing, they're scarce and expensive. A garage where I live would add something like 30% to my housing price or rent and would cost more than the fuel for my car; a garage "somewhere out of the way" (people who like to tinker with cars/motorcycles sometimes get one, functionally more like a workshop than car storage) is useless for commuting since you'd have to drive or take public transport to get to the garage.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Also how would they get to hospital in an emergency - your not guaranteed that the local hospital is where you need to go.

vetinari 9y ago

Frankly, none of the things you mentioned as a hurdle I see as such: Where to park it? In garage, obviously. Is it clean? Mostly yes, washing is a matter of 30 minutes. Does it need an inspection? Once in two years. Insurance? Just like another bill, you can pay it over Internet too. However: Do you live alone? If no, how do you do your shopping, for example? Do you have kids? If yes, how do you transport them?

foepys 9y ago
> Where to park it? In garage, obviously. Most people in Germany don't have a garage. Apart from that: the other part of the question is "where do I park my car when I'm not at home?", which is about 50% of the time. Inner cities in Germany don't have giant parking spots but narrow streets with parallel parking on the street with parking fees.
- vetinari 9y ago
  Where do you go, what's on the other side of your ride? At work; we have a parking lot. When visiting business partners, they have visitor parking. Shops also do have parking. Even the small gym that I visit has a parking lot (small one, but they don't want to lose customers after all). There are not many reasons to go to inner city, just for pubs. And there's no way you can go to pub and then drive anyway. All the small shops disappeared from the city centre years ago, because the patrons had a problem getting there. If you want the cheapest, but still clean and representable office space, you go into the city centre, into the pedestrian zone. Just don't expect many visits there, or even a fast internet connection for your office. Yes, I do live in Europe. Not in DE, though.
  - foepys 9y ago
    > All the small shops disappeared from the city centre years ago, because the patrons had a problem getting there. Luckily in Germany there are quite a lot pedestrian zones ("Fußgängerzonen") for shopping where motorized vehicles aren't even allowed and small businesses can thrive there. Cars have to park somewhere else and this can often become a problem. Parking is also quite expensive in major cities with parking fees up to 3€/hour. Building more parking lots into the inner cities is impossible and the fees are high to keep people moving. > Shops also do have parking. In Germany malls aren't very common. Inner cities are mostly mixed business and residential with shops on the lowest floor and apartments above.
rorykoehler 9y ago
Many Europeans live in inner cities. Shops are nearby. Kids walk, take public transport or ride bikes like the rest of us. Why choose to live in such a way were a car is necessary? The amount of time, money and effort that is saved by working, eating, sleeping and generally living in the same place is well worth any added housing costs.
- zhdc1 9y ago
  This is also true for a growing number of Americans. When I lived in DC (I now live in Europe), the worst thing about getting an otherwise beneficial job lateral was the need to get a car. And this comes from someone who enjoys driving.
- achamayou 9y ago
  Many, but not as many as the HN crowd thinks. In France, 80%+ households have at least one car, and 70%ish of commutes to work happen by car. It’s easy to forget if you live in the centre of the capital city of course.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Yes. Western Europe actually has more cars per capita than the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/its-official-western-europeans-have-more-cars-per-person-than-americans/261108/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/it... That said, I know many people who only use them occasionally. Gas is expensive here.
    - achamayou 9y ago
      I do too, but I mostly know people who live in a city center, or a close suburb. I saw the statistics about the various commute mechanisms recently, and it was an interesting reminder that my intuition about this was way off (I would have guessed 50%+ public transport, when it's really 70%+ car).
zhdc1 9y ago
Everyone of those is a hurdle for those who live in a western or central European city. Where do you park your car? On the street, in a designated parking zone, which happens to be a five to ten minute walk from where you live (because the handful of spots closer to your apartment are already taken). Where do you wash your car? Not in your driveway (because you don't have one) or on the street in front of your apartment, because that's - quite frankly - illegal. So, you have to take it to a car wash, which is inconvenient. Car inspections... well, on that, I can only speak for Germany and Switzerland. In our case, the engine bay and undercarriage needs to be thoroughly washed before going for an inspection, any sign of rust is an automatic failure, and the criteria overall are much stricter than in the US and UK. America (or even just suburban America) and other car-friendly Anglo-Saxon countries are more of an exception than a fair representation of how the average person relates to owning and driving a car.
- vetinari 9y ago
  I do live in Central Europe. However, the people who consider that hurdle are usually young people, living alone. Their focus now is to enjoy the life, travel, socialising, etc. In a few years, they will have partner, kids, and they will find out, that the car saves them a lot of time. It they can do in 10 minutes, what used to take 45? Sure, bring it on. That's exactly the reason why I and my similarly aged friends got the cars: the day has only 24 hours, and compared to that, car-related costs are only an expense, and quite a small ones in the bigger scheme of things.
zerostar07 9y ago
Parking in us vs europe is a huge difference. Not that it’s easy in either
- vetinari 9y ago
  Depends where in US, it's not all roses. I would not enjoy trying to park in south Manhattan, without having a rented space. I live in Europe, though.
probably_wrong 9y ago
Regarding shopping, you get one of these: https://www.amazon.de/Andersen-Royal-Shopper-Wismar-schwarz/dp/B018KH0A5E https://www.amazon.de/Andersen-Royal-Shopper-Wismar-schwarz/... It's also very common to have a reusable shopping bag in your everyday carry, and/or to carry your groceries in your backpack.
- vetinari 9y ago
  I did that when I was younger. Nowadays, we do weekly shopping. No way I would do that with public transport.
PeterisP 9y ago
A garage is a quite expensive proposition - in the dense cities (where much of Europeans live) they simply aren't a thing, they're scarce and expensive. A garage where I live would add something like 30% to my housing price or rent and would cost more than the fuel for my car; a garage "somewhere out of the way" (people who like to tinker with cars/motorcycles sometimes get one, functionally more like a workshop than car storage) is useless for commuting since you'd have to drive or take public transport to get to the garage.
walshemj 9y ago
Also how would they get to hospital in an emergency - your not guaranteed that the local hospital is where you need to go.