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> I think what's really missing from the discussion is the simple fact that if creative jobs (artist, writer) or less technical jobs paid as well as Soft Eng jo

> I think what's really missing from the discussion is the simple fact that if creative jobs (artist, writer) or less technical jobs paid as well as Soft Eng jobs then we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's largely a function of markets. You make it sound like it's a policy of some kind, or some kind of social problem that needs fixing. Also, you yourself are guilty of exaggerating the value of money. > Alternatively, we wouldn't be having this discussion if our society did not largely judge a man's success in life by his wealth (and the things money can buy, like a nice car). Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Associate with people that value similar things, not with people whose highest values are cars and money. > I guess what I'm saying is that, if I had the choice, I would rather be a sculptor making the same salary as a Senior Soft Eng than an engineer at a large company. Again with the money. If you want to be a sculptor, be a sculptor. > Too bad our society isn't set up like that, eh? Set up? Nothing is "set up". You seem to be living under the impression that there's this abstract looming thing called "society" that lords over the affairs of man, and that you are this lone ego occupying its center. Society is the set of individual human beings in a network of a variety of relationships. Money doesn't fall from the sky. Who's going to pay you for your sculptures? Are people supposed to pay you just so you can do what you want, market demand be damned? (Btw, some sculptors make ludicrous amounts of money. Many probably make okay money, though apparently the avg. salary for sculptors, painters and illustrators in Delaware is the same as the average for software engineers.)

aianus 9y ago
> Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Women do and I care because I like sex. When you have a luxury downtown apartment with a view and a sports car, it's playing the game on easy mode.
- astura 9y ago
  Why do you want to waste your time with the kind of woman who would only speak to you if you have a luxury downtown apartment and sports car if you don't want those things for yourself? Sounds like a recipe for resentment and unhappiness. Why not aim to have sex with women whose values more align with your own? - A woman who earns more than her husband
  - kelukelugames 9y ago
    The type of women I attracted tend to be type A and career oriented. I think they are the ones who want to be with someone with aligned values. Maybe they see material wealth as a signal for career success?
  - aianus 9y ago
    I do, but it's a lot easier to pick from a non-empty set. Just because they're initially attracted by superficial things (and probably subconsciously) doesn't make them bad people, any more than I'm a bad person for noticing a woman's chest size before learning about her values.
  - lobotryas 9y ago
    It feels like you're making the assumption that women who would be attracted/impressed by/enjoy luxury things are somehow shallow or maybe gold diggers. The truth is that status (or the potential for it) factors very highly into how humans pick mates. Luxury things are an easy proxy for status, your personal ambitions, and success. And yes, status can be displayed via other means if a person has social standing or does something our society considers cool (ex: rockstar). I guess what I'm saying is that, whatever personal situation, I doubt you would be interested in a man who just lazed around the couch all day watching Netflix, playing video games, and having little ambition beyond that.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
simonsarris 9y ago
> Who's judging you? Women. https://mobile.twitter.com/simonsarris/status/959776432653205505 https://mobile.twitter.com/simonsarris/status/95977643265320... I know lots of men who would love a simple extremely frugal lifestyle with early retirement, but work stressful (and well paying jobs) to secure a date.
- astura 9y ago
  Your friends really should be looking to date people whose values are more inline with their own then.
  - WalterSear 9y ago
    It doesn't work that way.
    - fujiters 9y ago
      Then it's also probably not going to work out anyway.
      - WalterSear 9y ago
        Look around your female friends: how many of them haven't "fallen" into vocational/traditional roles, being bankrolled by their husband? Unlike you, how many of them 'failed' to plan a lucrative career, who conveniently married a husband who didn't fail to plan? Or does the number of women outearning their SOs in your social group approach 50%? I'd wager the attitudes about men's and their resources that you state to abhor, are quietly shared by a lot more of your female friends than you care to accept, to a greater or lesser extent.
        astura 9y ago
        >how many of them haven't "fallen" into vocational/traditional roles, being bankrolled by their husband? One. Also my only religious friend and I think her religion is the factor here. (You're also assuming all my friends are into the "husband" thing, I have proudly single by choice friends and queer friends too) >how many of them 'failed' to plan a lucrative career, who conveniently married a husband who didn't fail to plan? None had zero career planning. Some of them their plans haven't quite worked out for them as they would have hoped though. Same with some of my male friends too though. It's pretty 50/50 among couples that I am friends which person has more of a "career" vs "job." I even had a female friend nearing 40 who just started college. One of my friends who works low paying jobs but is married to a doctor paid the bills for 8 years so he could go to college then medical school. In my own marriage I (female) am the "simple extremely frugal lifestyle with early retirement" one and my husband much more of a spender. He also earns less money than me. So, yes, it does "work that way," but first you must realize that women are humans too and not just fuckholes you pay for.
kiriakasis 9y ago
I think you are reading too much in the parent. Maybe the parent meant that the debate around various gender gaps are not that much about equality and more focused on the high levels status. just an interpretation
lobotryas 9y ago
It seems you've really gone down the rabbit hole with your reply and I'm not sure why. Money is incredibly important and valuable in our society. We've largely arranged our society around acquiring it, spending it, saving it and (sometimes to a sickening degree) glorifying it. Please see the fact that most people spend roughly 4,000 hours a year in their pursuit for money. The rest of your post seems a bit incoherent to me. My original post was not a demand or a policy prescription; just wistful thinking. If pressed for something even more specific I would say: "It would be great if there was a more concrete path coupled with high demand for creative careers as there is for writing more code." Out of curiosity I did look up average sculptor salaries in CA, but they are more than half that of an average software engineer so I guess I'll still be heading in to work on Monday ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

aianus 9y ago

> Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Women do and I care because I like sex. When you have a luxury downtown apartment with a view and a sports car, it's playing the game on easy mode.

astura 9y ago
Why do you want to waste your time with the kind of woman who would only speak to you if you have a luxury downtown apartment and sports car if you don't want those things for yourself? Sounds like a recipe for resentment and unhappiness. Why not aim to have sex with women whose values more align with your own? - A woman who earns more than her husband
- kelukelugames 9y ago
  The type of women I attracted tend to be type A and career oriented. I think they are the ones who want to be with someone with aligned values. Maybe they see material wealth as a signal for career success?
- aianus 9y ago
  I do, but it's a lot easier to pick from a non-empty set. Just because they're initially attracted by superficial things (and probably subconsciously) doesn't make them bad people, any more than I'm a bad person for noticing a woman's chest size before learning about her values.
- lobotryas 9y ago
  It feels like you're making the assumption that women who would be attracted/impressed by/enjoy luxury things are somehow shallow or maybe gold diggers. The truth is that status (or the potential for it) factors very highly into how humans pick mates. Luxury things are an easy proxy for status, your personal ambitions, and success. And yes, status can be displayed via other means if a person has social standing or does something our society considers cool (ex: rockstar). I guess what I'm saying is that, whatever personal situation, I doubt you would be interested in a man who just lazed around the couch all day watching Netflix, playing video games, and having little ambition beyond that.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

simonsarris 9y ago

> Who's judging you? Women. https://mobile.twitter.com/simonsarris/status/959776432653205505 https://mobile.twitter.com/simonsarris/status/95977643265320... I know lots of men who would love a simple extremely frugal lifestyle with early retirement, but work stressful (and well paying jobs) to secure a date.

astura 9y ago
Your friends really should be looking to date people whose values are more inline with their own then.
- WalterSear 9y ago
  It doesn't work that way.
  - fujiters 9y ago
    Then it's also probably not going to work out anyway.
    - WalterSear 9y ago
      Look around your female friends: how many of them haven't "fallen" into vocational/traditional roles, being bankrolled by their husband? Unlike you, how many of them 'failed' to plan a lucrative career, who conveniently married a husband who didn't fail to plan? Or does the number of women outearning their SOs in your social group approach 50%? I'd wager the attitudes about men's and their resources that you state to abhor, are quietly shared by a lot more of your female friends than you care to accept, to a greater or lesser extent.
      - astura 9y ago
        >how many of them haven't "fallen" into vocational/traditional roles, being bankrolled by their husband? One. Also my only religious friend and I think her religion is the factor here. (You're also assuming all my friends are into the "husband" thing, I have proudly single by choice friends and queer friends too) >how many of them 'failed' to plan a lucrative career, who conveniently married a husband who didn't fail to plan? None had zero career planning. Some of them their plans haven't quite worked out for them as they would have hoped though. Same with some of my male friends too though. It's pretty 50/50 among couples that I am friends which person has more of a "career" vs "job." I even had a female friend nearing 40 who just started college. One of my friends who works low paying jobs but is married to a doctor paid the bills for 8 years so he could go to college then medical school. In my own marriage I (female) am the "simple extremely frugal lifestyle with early retirement" one and my husband much more of a spender. He also earns less money than me. So, yes, it does "work that way," but first you must realize that women are humans too and not just fuckholes you pay for.

kiriakasis 9y ago

I think you are reading too much in the parent. Maybe the parent meant that the debate around various gender gaps are not that much about equality and more focused on the high levels status. just an interpretation

lobotryas 9y ago

It seems you've really gone down the rabbit hole with your reply and I'm not sure why. Money is incredibly important and valuable in our society. We've largely arranged our society around acquiring it, spending it, saving it and (sometimes to a sickening degree) glorifying it. Please see the fact that most people spend roughly 4,000 hours a year in their pursuit for money. The rest of your post seems a bit incoherent to me. My original post was not a demand or a policy prescription; just wistful thinking. If pressed for something even more specific I would say: "It would be great if there was a more concrete path coupled with high demand for creative careers as there is for writing more code." Out of curiosity I did look up average sculptor salaries in CA, but they are more than half that of an average software engineer so I guess I'll still be heading in to work on Monday ¯\_(ツ)_/¯