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> A Court in Germany ordered that access to certain items in the Project Gutenberg collection are blocked from Germany... until the issue is resolved during app

> A Court in Germany ordered that access to certain items in the Project Gutenberg collection are blocked from Germany... until the issue is resolved during appeal, [Project Gutenberg] will comply. This is really misleading. It implies -- nay, outright states -- that Gutenberg is merely complying with the court order. But the court did not order the entire site to be blocked. A more candid answer is found in their information page:[1] Q: Why block all of Germany, rather than just those 18 books? A: ...Because the German Court has overstepped its jurisdiction, and allowed the world's largest publishing group to bully Project Gutenberg for these 18 books, there is every reason to think that this will keep happening... Blocking Germany, in an effort to forestall further legal actions, seems the best way to protect the organization and retain focus on its mission. [1] https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html

obastani 9y ago
I thought it was pretty clear. They specifically say "certain items" were to be blocked, not the entire website.
- MarkMc 9y ago
  I disagree - it's not at all clear. Most people reading the statement would assume that the book they were trying to access was among the 'certain items' blocked by the court.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - smichel17 9y ago
    I'm currently in Germany. The notice appears when trying to access any part of the catalog, even the search. Thus, I don't think this is an issue.
    - BlackFingolfin 9y ago
      It also appears for the URL they give in the FAQ for donations :-(
- mcguire 9y ago
  Prededents. Further lawsuits against PG for any of the other German texts could bankrupt the organization.
- simcop2387 9y ago
  This is answered in the FAQ at the bottom of the article. Essentially because this sets a precedent that Germany believes it can sue over anything in the german language and other items in the library might potentially cause the same kind of lawsuit it's better to just block everything instead.
  - usr1106 9y ago
    > Germany believes it can sue over anything in the german language You did not read the ruling (carefully). The language of the books was not discussed at all. It was discussed whether the offer (to download books) is directed to people in Germany. Project Gutenberg said "NO", because they use a .org domain. (Obviously trying to claim that Germans only visit .de domains and neglecting the fact that .org is really trying to stress international coverage) The court ruled "YES" because - Project Gutenberg explicitly mentions to be available worldwide (before the geo blocking resulting from this very case) - Project Gutenberg has some of its Web site translated into German. (In court they argued they did that to address US users, because German is the 3rd biggest foreign language in the US. The court did not accept that argument.) Furthermore it was counted against them that project Gutenberg advises on its web site that users must check local copyright laws before downloading, because downloading might be illegal according to local laws. Taking these points into account I must say the court ruling was logical from a legal viewpoint. Project Gutenberg had only lame excuses and in fact denied their own mission in court. The real issue is that incompatible country laws don't fit at all with Internet (unless you propose a Chinese big (fire)wall). But I don't see any improvements any time soon, a certain president just declared last week that trade wars are the way to go.
    - vageli 9y ago
      Why doesn't Austria have jurisdiction for German content, do they not speak German in Austria? Do UK courts have jurisdiction over companies which produce content in English? It's absurd to think that an element to establishing jurisdiction is the language content is produced in.
      - 9y ago
gowld 9y ago
PG decided they don't have time to deal with Germany's BS, so they implemented the simplest solution guaranteed to work.
- gsich 9y ago
  The simplest solution would have been to do nothing.
  - redmorphium 9y ago
    They still have to comply with the court ruling, i.e. at least block those 18 books in Germany, as they aren't The Pirate Bay. The website's move is smart because it avoids future complications coming from the Urheberrechtsgesetz, the German copyright law, and draws much-needed public attention to how easy it is for bully firms to abuse it.
    - gsich 9y ago
      The Q and A contradicts this. >Copyright status in another country is not relevant to the legitimate ability of Project Gutenberg -- or anyone/anything in the US -- to make any use of these books.
      - discoursism 9y ago
        According to the ruling, the CEO wouldn't be liable personally unless the violation is willful. Which, having been adjudicated in German court, it now would be. If the CEO becomes personally liable then found in contempt, he would have to avoid travel to Germany. That's a lot to ask of a volunteer.
    - d0100 9y ago
      How come they have to obey the court in Germany?
      - GlobalFrog 9y ago
chrismcb 9y ago
It says "ordered that access to certain items..." I don't see anything misleading, or any implication that the court ordered the whole site blocked. I think it is obvious that only a few items were ordered to be blocked but they decided to block the whole site
stordoff 9y ago
As the block page states, the court order states that certain items must be blocked - it does not specify the means by which it must be accomplished. Blocking German IPs is the simplest way to achieve that.

obastani 9y ago

I thought it was pretty clear. They specifically say "certain items" were to be blocked, not the entire website.

MarkMc 9y ago
I disagree - it's not at all clear. Most people reading the statement would assume that the book they were trying to access was among the 'certain items' blocked by the court.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- smichel17 9y ago
  I'm currently in Germany. The notice appears when trying to access any part of the catalog, even the search. Thus, I don't think this is an issue.
  - BlackFingolfin 9y ago
    It also appears for the URL they give in the FAQ for donations :-(
mcguire 9y ago
Prededents. Further lawsuits against PG for any of the other German texts could bankrupt the organization.
simcop2387 9y ago
This is answered in the FAQ at the bottom of the article. Essentially because this sets a precedent that Germany believes it can sue over anything in the german language and other items in the library might potentially cause the same kind of lawsuit it's better to just block everything instead.
- usr1106 9y ago
  > Germany believes it can sue over anything in the german language You did not read the ruling (carefully). The language of the books was not discussed at all. It was discussed whether the offer (to download books) is directed to people in Germany. Project Gutenberg said "NO", because they use a .org domain. (Obviously trying to claim that Germans only visit .de domains and neglecting the fact that .org is really trying to stress international coverage) The court ruled "YES" because - Project Gutenberg explicitly mentions to be available worldwide (before the geo blocking resulting from this very case) - Project Gutenberg has some of its Web site translated into German. (In court they argued they did that to address US users, because German is the 3rd biggest foreign language in the US. The court did not accept that argument.) Furthermore it was counted against them that project Gutenberg advises on its web site that users must check local copyright laws before downloading, because downloading might be illegal according to local laws. Taking these points into account I must say the court ruling was logical from a legal viewpoint. Project Gutenberg had only lame excuses and in fact denied their own mission in court. The real issue is that incompatible country laws don't fit at all with Internet (unless you propose a Chinese big (fire)wall). But I don't see any improvements any time soon, a certain president just declared last week that trade wars are the way to go.
  - vageli 9y ago
    Why doesn't Austria have jurisdiction for German content, do they not speak German in Austria? Do UK courts have jurisdiction over companies which produce content in English? It's absurd to think that an element to establishing jurisdiction is the language content is produced in.
    - 9y ago

gowld 9y ago

PG decided they don't have time to deal with Germany's BS, so they implemented the simplest solution guaranteed to work.

gsich 9y ago
The simplest solution would have been to do nothing.
- redmorphium 9y ago
  They still have to comply with the court ruling, i.e. at least block those 18 books in Germany, as they aren't The Pirate Bay. The website's move is smart because it avoids future complications coming from the Urheberrechtsgesetz, the German copyright law, and draws much-needed public attention to how easy it is for bully firms to abuse it.
  - gsich 9y ago
    The Q and A contradicts this. >Copyright status in another country is not relevant to the legitimate ability of Project Gutenberg -- or anyone/anything in the US -- to make any use of these books.
    - discoursism 9y ago
      According to the ruling, the CEO wouldn't be liable personally unless the violation is willful. Which, having been adjudicated in German court, it now would be. If the CEO becomes personally liable then found in contempt, he would have to avoid travel to Germany. That's a lot to ask of a volunteer.
  - d0100 9y ago
    How come they have to obey the court in Germany?
    - GlobalFrog 9y ago

chrismcb 9y ago

It says "ordered that access to certain items..." I don't see anything misleading, or any implication that the court ordered the whole site blocked. I think it is obvious that only a few items were ordered to be blocked but they decided to block the whole site

stordoff 9y ago

As the block page states, the court order states that certain items must be blocked - it does not specify the means by which it must be accomplished. Blocking German IPs is the simplest way to achieve that.