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> If germany doesn't like that they are now being blocked, then they should change their laws. Sadly it ain't as easy as that, the copyright lobby is very powe

> If germany doesn't like that they are now being blocked, then they should change their laws. Sadly it ain't as easy as that, the copyright lobby is very powerful in Germany, with their very own special interest laws like "mitstörerhaftung" [0] and the "Impressumspflicht". It's stuff like that which prevents open WLAN easily being run and operated because in Germany the person running the AP is liable for everything that happens trough said connection. There are a ton of law firms who solely generate their income by sending out bulk cease&desist letters to torrent seeders, people who don't have a proper "Impressum" on their webpage and a number of other "formal" reasons. Kindergartens and retirement homes have gotten c&d letters over singing Christmas songs amounting to "copyrighted content". These letters pretty much boil down to "Pay this fine and sign that you won't do it again if you still do it again you are liable for several thousands of € in damages". Most people just pay the "fine" (usually starting at around 500€ sometimes quite a bit higher depending on the content) as it's easier and less hassle compared to taking it to the court, which are quite often technological inept and thus are very likely to side with the claimant's version of "This is theft/piracy!". It's pretty much a very own sub-sector of law firms in Germany. Most people often think practices like these are something reserved to the US, a while ago, but Germany has its fair share of copyright insanity going on too. At this point, I'd guess Germany is even a far bit crazier than the US. [0] https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-fi-in-germany/ https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-f... [1] https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/ https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/

lovich 9y ago
Then Germany as an entity can deal with the results of their society being structured in a way that allows those special interests to have that level of control. America has the same problems as well but it's be unreasonable to expect people in other sovereignties to make special accommodations for me just because my government is making me follow a different set of rules
- freeflight 9y ago
  > it's be unreasonable to expect people in other sovereignties to make special accommodations for me Nobody is expecting PG to do anything like that, what is expected is that PG just removes these 18 books from German access, if they don't then the German publisher can cease&desist them over giving access to said books, which would have no effect at all on GP due to it being an entity that's registered in California, so German c&d letters have literally no effect on them. GP is taking a stance here, which I very much appreciate as a German, but quite a few people here seem to be misunderstanding what's actually happening here or expected from GP.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    There is nothing in the decision about "German access". "The defendants are ordered, on penalty of an administrative fine of up to EUR 250,000.00 or, alternatively, imprisonment of up to 6 months, for each case of non- compliance, said imprisonment to be imposed on the second defendant, to cease and desist from making the following works publicly available or letting them be made publicly available, namely:..." Plus damages.
    - freeflight 9y ago
      The fact that they are talking about Germany is self-evident because it's a German court and they even wrote it out plainly, if you'd bothered to read further than the part you quoted: "via the website www.gutenberg.org (including its sub-pages) without the plaintiff’s consent, if and to the extent to which it is possible for internet users to access them (screen display and/or download) from Germany." If you want to talk about national courts censoring content from the whole www then you need to talk to US courts and their "chilling effects".
  - lovich 9y ago
    Your expectation is that PG is going to go and add extra features and work to turn off specific items to comply with other people's rulesets. Why is PG expected to modify their behavior? It's certainly acceptable for Germany to not allow what PG does in Germany, but they don't get to pick and choose what's allowed if PG also doesn't want to play ball. PG is allowed to say it's a package deal
Grollicus 9y ago
The Störerhaftung is not a special interest law for copyright. The idea is that you are at fault if others use you (/your stuff) to violate rights of a third party. For example if someone were to spray paint "freeflight sucks" on my house you could ask me to remove it and if I didn't, you could sue me.
- freeflight 9y ago
  Its interpretation in regards to online access is (was) very much special interest for copyright claimants and one of the major hurdles for getting free WiFi coverage in Germany.

lovich 9y ago

Then Germany as an entity can deal with the results of their society being structured in a way that allows those special interests to have that level of control. America has the same problems as well but it's be unreasonable to expect people in other sovereignties to make special accommodations for me just because my government is making me follow a different set of rules

freeflight 9y ago
> it's be unreasonable to expect people in other sovereignties to make special accommodations for me Nobody is expecting PG to do anything like that, what is expected is that PG just removes these 18 books from German access, if they don't then the German publisher can cease&desist them over giving access to said books, which would have no effect at all on GP due to it being an entity that's registered in California, so German c&d letters have literally no effect on them. GP is taking a stance here, which I very much appreciate as a German, but quite a few people here seem to be misunderstanding what's actually happening here or expected from GP.
- mcguire 9y ago
  There is nothing in the decision about "German access". "The defendants are ordered, on penalty of an administrative fine of up to EUR 250,000.00 or, alternatively, imprisonment of up to 6 months, for each case of non- compliance, said imprisonment to be imposed on the second defendant, to cease and desist from making the following works publicly available or letting them be made publicly available, namely:..." Plus damages.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    The fact that they are talking about Germany is self-evident because it's a German court and they even wrote it out plainly, if you'd bothered to read further than the part you quoted: "via the website www.gutenberg.org (including its sub-pages) without the plaintiff’s consent, if and to the extent to which it is possible for internet users to access them (screen display and/or download) from Germany." If you want to talk about national courts censoring content from the whole www then you need to talk to US courts and their "chilling effects".
- lovich 9y ago
  Your expectation is that PG is going to go and add extra features and work to turn off specific items to comply with other people's rulesets. Why is PG expected to modify their behavior? It's certainly acceptable for Germany to not allow what PG does in Germany, but they don't get to pick and choose what's allowed if PG also doesn't want to play ball. PG is allowed to say it's a package deal

Grollicus 9y ago

The Störerhaftung is not a special interest law for copyright. The idea is that you are at fault if others use you (/your stuff) to violate rights of a third party. For example if someone were to spray paint "freeflight sucks" on my house you could ask me to remove it and if I didn't, you could sue me.

freeflight 9y ago
Its interpretation in regards to online access is (was) very much special interest for copyright claimants and one of the major hurdles for getting free WiFi coverage in Germany.