3 ms·

> But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website. Sued by whom? Afaik gutenberg.org is registered in California, no German jurisdic

> But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website. Sued by whom? Afaik gutenberg.org is registered in California, no German jurisdiction, the cease&desist orders usually used to shut something like this down don't apply here. Same deal with ISPs: Afaik there's no legal framework to support anything like that, it's for exactly that reason why law firms like Waldorf and Frommer uses cease&desist letters to pretty much blackmail people into stopping the "distribution", it's all based on civil action.

Xylakant 9y ago
> Afaik there's no legal framework to support anything like that, You might be careful with that assertion. As recently as Feb. 1st 2018 (so a month ago), Vodafone was compelled to block access to kinox.to in a preliminary injunction (1). The EUGH decided in 2014 that blocking pages is at least an option (2). This is contradictory to the EU e-commerce regulations, so the legality is somewhat murky at the moment, but it’s not definitely off the table. (1) https://netzpolitik.org/2018/netzsperren-vodafone-muss-kinox-to-blockieren-und-kundendaten-speichern/ https://netzpolitik.org/2018/netzsperren-vodafone-muss-kinox... (2) Telekabel Wien vs. Constantin Film http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=149924&pageIndex=0&doclang=de&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=515352 http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc...
- freeflight 9y ago
  I missed that, somewhat recent, development thank you for pointing this out. Still, as you said, this is legally murky and I wouldn't be too surprised if this turns out to be overturned again by a higher court. Some German courts have a reputation for quickly and easily siding with copyright claimants, just to have it overturned later by a higher instance. It's still really shitty that stuff like this keeps on happening and even when these claims turn out to be straight up scams (like that whole Redtube mess [0]) it has barely any real consequences in terms of laws being changed. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13600869.2015.1012777?src=recsys https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13600869.2015.1...
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    The EUGH decision is fairly recent and it’s about as far up as possible. So I wouldn’t hold my breath unless the EU doubles down on net neutrality.
    - freeflight 9y ago
      The EUGH link does not work, but the Vodafone case was a decision by a Munich court, which could still be overturned if somebody bothered going all the way up to the BVerfG.
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        Odd, link works for me. In case you want to search for it, it’s lawsuit C‑314/12, the document identifier seems to be ECLI:EU:C:2014:192 Or you can follow the link in the first article to https://netzpolitik.org/2014/eugh-legt-zensur-grundlagen-netzsperren-bei-urheberrechtsverstoessen-zulaessig/ https://netzpolitik.org/2014/eugh-legt-zensur-grundlagen-net... which has a link to the court decision (grep for “Das Urteil”)
        freeflight 9y ago
        I'm getting a pretty weird CVRIA specific 404 (Page does not exist), in English and French when trying to access the link. Googling for "Telekabel Wien vs. Constantin Film" gives the same top result, but going through there also just gives me the same 404. Weird stuff going on at CVRIA?
raverbashing 9y ago
Rights owners in Germany would request the blocking to the Justice system, due to theirs rights being violated If someone hosts a website in another country, hosting US copyrighted material, I assume something similar would happen if the site refused to take the material down
- freeflight 9y ago
  The legalities behind this are mostly based on civil law and not as straight as some people here seem to think because German ISPs to have a certain level of protection, I can't remember the exact name of said legality (just imagine yet another very long German word, people familiar with Freifunker-Netz probably know this better), but it's pretty much a constant back and forth struggle.
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  > a website in another country, hosting US copyrighted material, I assume something similar would happen if the site refused to take the material down https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2017/april/ustr-releases-2017-special-301-report https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-... is what happens. Being on the 301 report watch lists can have pretty nasty consequences in trade relations with the US.

Xylakant 9y ago

> Afaik there's no legal framework to support anything like that, You might be careful with that assertion. As recently as Feb. 1st 2018 (so a month ago), Vodafone was compelled to block access to kinox.to in a preliminary injunction (1). The EUGH decided in 2014 that blocking pages is at least an option (2). This is contradictory to the EU e-commerce regulations, so the legality is somewhat murky at the moment, but it’s not definitely off the table. (1) https://netzpolitik.org/2018/netzsperren-vodafone-muss-kinox-to-blockieren-und-kundendaten-speichern/ https://netzpolitik.org/2018/netzsperren-vodafone-muss-kinox... (2) Telekabel Wien vs. Constantin Film http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=149924&pageIndex=0&doclang=de&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=515352 http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc...

freeflight 9y ago
I missed that, somewhat recent, development thank you for pointing this out. Still, as you said, this is legally murky and I wouldn't be too surprised if this turns out to be overturned again by a higher court. Some German courts have a reputation for quickly and easily siding with copyright claimants, just to have it overturned later by a higher instance. It's still really shitty that stuff like this keeps on happening and even when these claims turn out to be straight up scams (like that whole Redtube mess [0]) it has barely any real consequences in terms of laws being changed. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13600869.2015.1012777?src=recsys https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13600869.2015.1...
- Xylakant 9y ago
  The EUGH decision is fairly recent and it’s about as far up as possible. So I wouldn’t hold my breath unless the EU doubles down on net neutrality.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    The EUGH link does not work, but the Vodafone case was a decision by a Munich court, which could still be overturned if somebody bothered going all the way up to the BVerfG.
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      Odd, link works for me. In case you want to search for it, it’s lawsuit C‑314/12, the document identifier seems to be ECLI:EU:C:2014:192 Or you can follow the link in the first article to https://netzpolitik.org/2014/eugh-legt-zensur-grundlagen-netzsperren-bei-urheberrechtsverstoessen-zulaessig/ https://netzpolitik.org/2014/eugh-legt-zensur-grundlagen-net... which has a link to the court decision (grep for “Das Urteil”)
      - freeflight 9y ago
        I'm getting a pretty weird CVRIA specific 404 (Page does not exist), in English and French when trying to access the link. Googling for "Telekabel Wien vs. Constantin Film" gives the same top result, but going through there also just gives me the same 404. Weird stuff going on at CVRIA?

raverbashing 9y ago

Rights owners in Germany would request the blocking to the Justice system, due to theirs rights being violated If someone hosts a website in another country, hosting US copyrighted material, I assume something similar would happen if the site refused to take the material down

freeflight 9y ago
The legalities behind this are mostly based on civil law and not as straight as some people here seem to think because German ISPs to have a certain level of protection, I can't remember the exact name of said legality (just imagine yet another very long German word, people familiar with Freifunker-Netz probably know this better), but it's pretty much a constant back and forth struggle.
pgeorgi 9y ago
> a website in another country, hosting US copyrighted material, I assume something similar would happen if the site refused to take the material down https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2017/april/ustr-releases-2017-special-301-report https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-... is what happens. Being on the 301 report watch lists can have pretty nasty consequences in trade relations with the US.