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If only Russia had stayed away, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I’ll say this for the US, at least when they invade they admit it; thy royally fuc

If only Russia had stayed away, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I’ll say this for the US, at least when they invade they admit it; thy royally fuck it up, but they admit it.

danbruc 9y ago
Let me just add this for the records because you added to your initial comment while I replied, I am from East Germany and am surly happy that the Soviet Union fell apart. But I am also quite skeptical and a black and white picture of the good NATO and bad Russia seems rather unlikely. During the German reunification talks it was supposedly at least suggested that the NATO would not expand eastwards and the US has a long history of messing with unwelcome governments. I really do not want to justify Russian actions in the Ukraine in any way, but I do not feel confident to say that it was pure aggression from Russia. Also whether one should deny a NATO memberships to countries that might have legitimate interests in just because the Soviet Union was against it at the end of the Cold War and especially if it was never even part of any formal agreement is by no means a clear cut issue that I want to argue for or against here. I really just want to avoid judgments here because I certainly do not understand all the forces and motivations at work.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  I respect your skepticism, and the attempt to reserve judgement in the face of uncertain, conflicting, and politically charged information.
- throwaway5752 9y ago
  Well, they elected Viktor Yushchenko and "someone" accidentally tried to poison him with dioxin and almost succeeded. Then somehow Viktor Yanukovych was elected, signed extremely pro-Russian legislation (after being advised by Paul Manafort, currently indicted by Mueller for his actions related to the 2016 US presidential election). Russia would probably point to NATO encroachment in areas it considered inviolate, but honestly, they invaded free and independent neighbors and annexed them... and perhaps a bit of circumspection in that respect would have been wise.

If only Russia had stayed away, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I’ll say this for the US, at least when they invade they admit it; thy royally fuck it up, but they admit it.

danbruc 9y ago

Let me just add this for the records because you added to your initial comment while I replied, I am from East Germany and am surly happy that the Soviet Union fell apart. But I am also quite skeptical and a black and white picture of the good NATO and bad Russia seems rather unlikely. During the German reunification talks it was supposedly at least suggested that the NATO would not expand eastwards and the US has a long history of messing with unwelcome governments. I really do not want to justify Russian actions in the Ukraine in any way, but I do not feel confident to say that it was pure aggression from Russia. Also whether one should deny a NATO memberships to countries that might have legitimate interests in just because the Soviet Union was against it at the end of the Cold War and especially if it was never even part of any formal agreement is by no means a clear cut issue that I want to argue for or against here. I really just want to avoid judgments here because I certainly do not understand all the forces and motivations at work.

IntronExon 9y ago
I respect your skepticism, and the attempt to reserve judgement in the face of uncertain, conflicting, and politically charged information.
throwaway5752 9y ago
Well, they elected Viktor Yushchenko and "someone" accidentally tried to poison him with dioxin and almost succeeded. Then somehow Viktor Yanukovych was elected, signed extremely pro-Russian legislation (after being advised by Paul Manafort, currently indicted by Mueller for his actions related to the 2016 US presidential election). Russia would probably point to NATO encroachment in areas it considered inviolate, but honestly, they invaded free and independent neighbors and annexed them... and perhaps a bit of circumspection in that respect would have been wise.