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By the same token, if the Ukraine had been more paranoid about Russian intentions, they might not have been invaded by Russia yet again. It’s not just the US, P

By the same token, if the Ukraine had been more paranoid about Russian intentions, they might not have been invaded by Russia yet again. It’s not just the US, Poland has no interest in becoming a Russian satellite again. We can try to equivocate, but after WWII Russia took over half of Europe, and the US didn’t. Would Russia have rebuilt Japan and let it go? The history of (East) Germany suggests an answer.

danbruc 9y ago
I will stay away from Ukraine as an example because I am unable to judge if and to what extend the West tried to influence the situation there and if Russia's actions where at least partially reactions.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  If only Russia had stayed away, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I’ll say this for the US, at least when they invade they admit it; thy royally fuck it up, but they admit it.
  - danbruc 9y ago
    Let me just add this for the records because you added to your initial comment while I replied, I am from East Germany and am surly happy that the Soviet Union fell apart. But I am also quite skeptical and a black and white picture of the good NATO and bad Russia seems rather unlikely. During the German reunification talks it was supposedly at least suggested that the NATO would not expand eastwards and the US has a long history of messing with unwelcome governments. I really do not want to justify Russian actions in the Ukraine in any way, but I do not feel confident to say that it was pure aggression from Russia. Also whether one should deny a NATO memberships to countries that might have legitimate interests in just because the Soviet Union was against it at the end of the Cold War and especially if it was never even part of any formal agreement is by no means a clear cut issue that I want to argue for or against here. I really just want to avoid judgments here because I certainly do not understand all the forces and motivations at work.
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      I respect your skepticism, and the attempt to reserve judgement in the face of uncertain, conflicting, and politically charged information.
    - throwaway5752 9y ago
      Well, they elected Viktor Yushchenko and "someone" accidentally tried to poison him with dioxin and almost succeeded. Then somehow Viktor Yanukovych was elected, signed extremely pro-Russian legislation (after being advised by Paul Manafort, currently indicted by Mueller for his actions related to the 2016 US presidential election). Russia would probably point to NATO encroachment in areas it considered inviolate, but honestly, they invaded free and independent neighbors and annexed them... and perhaps a bit of circumspection in that respect would have been wise.
- v_lisivka 9y ago
  USA deployed troops in Kyїv (Kiev) and started war against Ukrainians at Donbass, so Russian Federation invaded Ukraine to protect Ukrainians from USA troops. Go to Russian news site and read The Truth. J
  - danbruc 9y ago
    That sounds rather implausible, too. I have some weak memories of - at least officially - training missions or something along that line but I can not even tell when this was in relation to other events.
    - v_lisivka 9y ago
      It is «The Truth» from Russian Federation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efcDkTyyZtQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efcDkTyyZtQ You will not believe in that for the first 20 years or so, of course.
      - danbruc 9y ago
        I am slightly confused why you used quotes around truth because that would often indicate that it is not actually the truth. Looking at your two comments I can not really tell if you think the involvement of Academi in the conflict actually happened or whether you are being sarcastic. Anyway, I heard about it at that time and the evidence that Academi was active in the east of the Ukraine is rather thin at best. There are hundreds of articles but they are all just referencing each other and there is almost no underlying information. Sure, that would be the goal, to remain as unnoticed as possible, but it seems extremely unlikely that there are not more pictures and videos if 400 mercenaries were actively fighting in the Ukraine, especially given how powerful such material would be if its authenticity was not in doubt.
        v_lisivka 9y ago
        It's clearly marked with «J».

danbruc 9y ago

I will stay away from Ukraine as an example because I am unable to judge if and to what extend the West tried to influence the situation there and if Russia's actions where at least partially reactions.

IntronExon 9y ago
If only Russia had stayed away, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I’ll say this for the US, at least when they invade they admit it; thy royally fuck it up, but they admit it.
- danbruc 9y ago
  Let me just add this for the records because you added to your initial comment while I replied, I am from East Germany and am surly happy that the Soviet Union fell apart. But I am also quite skeptical and a black and white picture of the good NATO and bad Russia seems rather unlikely. During the German reunification talks it was supposedly at least suggested that the NATO would not expand eastwards and the US has a long history of messing with unwelcome governments. I really do not want to justify Russian actions in the Ukraine in any way, but I do not feel confident to say that it was pure aggression from Russia. Also whether one should deny a NATO memberships to countries that might have legitimate interests in just because the Soviet Union was against it at the end of the Cold War and especially if it was never even part of any formal agreement is by no means a clear cut issue that I want to argue for or against here. I really just want to avoid judgments here because I certainly do not understand all the forces and motivations at work.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    I respect your skepticism, and the attempt to reserve judgement in the face of uncertain, conflicting, and politically charged information.
  - throwaway5752 9y ago
    Well, they elected Viktor Yushchenko and "someone" accidentally tried to poison him with dioxin and almost succeeded. Then somehow Viktor Yanukovych was elected, signed extremely pro-Russian legislation (after being advised by Paul Manafort, currently indicted by Mueller for his actions related to the 2016 US presidential election). Russia would probably point to NATO encroachment in areas it considered inviolate, but honestly, they invaded free and independent neighbors and annexed them... and perhaps a bit of circumspection in that respect would have been wise.
v_lisivka 9y ago
USA deployed troops in Kyїv (Kiev) and started war against Ukrainians at Donbass, so Russian Federation invaded Ukraine to protect Ukrainians from USA troops. Go to Russian news site and read The Truth. J
- danbruc 9y ago
  That sounds rather implausible, too. I have some weak memories of - at least officially - training missions or something along that line but I can not even tell when this was in relation to other events.
  - v_lisivka 9y ago
    It is «The Truth» from Russian Federation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efcDkTyyZtQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efcDkTyyZtQ You will not believe in that for the first 20 years or so, of course.
    - danbruc 9y ago
      I am slightly confused why you used quotes around truth because that would often indicate that it is not actually the truth. Looking at your two comments I can not really tell if you think the involvement of Academi in the conflict actually happened or whether you are being sarcastic. Anyway, I heard about it at that time and the evidence that Academi was active in the east of the Ukraine is rather thin at best. There are hundreds of articles but they are all just referencing each other and there is almost no underlying information. Sure, that would be the goal, to remain as unnoticed as possible, but it seems extremely unlikely that there are not more pictures and videos if 400 mercenaries were actively fighting in the Ukraine, especially given how powerful such material would be if its authenticity was not in doubt.
      - v_lisivka 9y ago
        It's clearly marked with «J».