4 ms·

> It'd be interesting to see what proportion of the pay gap/high status job gap comes from different sociosexual incentives Obviously this is highly speculativ

> It'd be interesting to see what proportion of the pay gap/high status job gap comes from different sociosexual incentives Obviously this is highly speculative but for quite some time now I have the theory that the former Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. This would also explain the rise of the Chinese economy in the recent decades, as they have a surplus of men and I heard that they need to own at least a flat and a car to have chances on the dating market.

badpun 9y ago
> Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. I am from an ex-Soviet block country (Poland). I agree that people in here are less obsessed with success and money than the Westernerns. This also translates into dating/marriage choices of women. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but I think it can be justified by looking at our history. Over time, so much terrible things happened here that people learned not to create too strong attachments to material things and societial hierarchies (which disappear when you're invaded by another country). It was wiser to try to find joy in family, human connection and simple things that cannot be taken away from you so easily.
- bobthechef 9y ago
  Poles often say that there is a tendency among Polish have-nots to be jealous of the haves.
  - percival_krusen 9y ago
    ...is there anywhere this is not true?
  - badpun 9y ago
    I wouldn't say exactly jealous - I'd say more often it's outrage about how a lot of those rich folks came to money - via crass worker exploitation (SE-Asia style) or stealing millions from the government. A rich person is often perceived as someone who you wouldn't want to hang round, as he/she's likely to be very morally dubious.
- fyfy18 9y ago
  Here in Lithuania that is true for the majority of people who don’t have money, however those that do and ‘new money’ are much more concerned with material wealth than those from more Western countries IMO. I was working in Rome a few years ago and people there are very practical with cars, they are small and cheap. On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here.
  - badpun 9y ago
    > On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here. Interesting. When I was visiting Malmo (in suposedly egalitarian Sweden) I was shocked about the amount of premium cars (Audis, BMWs etc.) on the streets. Seemed anything but egalitarian to me. I had similar impressions in Germany or the UK. It's interesting why Rome is different.
    - fyfy18 9y ago
      Rome may be a bit of a bad example, as although it’s the capital of Italy, it isn’t that wealthy a city. However even on trips to other parts of the country (I was there for over a year) it appeared to be the same situation. There’s definitely an advantage to having a small car in Italy (I had a Prius and it felt too big), but most people had cars that would even feel old here (where most people have 2nd or 3rd hand cars).
Tade0 9y ago
> At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. There are a few factors at play here. At least in Poland women more often than men choose to leave rural areas in favor of cities and that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Men here are still regarded as providers and status, or at least status signaling, matters - one obvious example is how much people(men) spend on cars.
- dozzie 9y ago
  > [...] that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? > Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. > Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Yes, because suicide is a primary or at least a major reason that men die (or die young).
  - Tade0 9y ago
    You're ignoring a lot of subtelties here. > I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? Warsaw is a great example, but ironically these womens' standards are pretty high - all in all they didn't leave their 30k-something-souls towns for the Big City to marry a man who doesn't enjoy a decent social status himself. > Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. Anecdata: my sister was born in 86' and is currently single and childless, just like a few of her friends. On one hand they're pressured to do something about this, on the other there aren't many eligible bachelors available because well, they're taken. This song[0] illustrates this point beautifully. Hell, the problem is so visible right now that a TV show dedicated to making couples out of (most of the time)well-off farmers and city-dwelling women[1] was created. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland

badpun 9y ago

> Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. I am from an ex-Soviet block country (Poland). I agree that people in here are less obsessed with success and money than the Westernerns. This also translates into dating/marriage choices of women. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but I think it can be justified by looking at our history. Over time, so much terrible things happened here that people learned not to create too strong attachments to material things and societial hierarchies (which disappear when you're invaded by another country). It was wiser to try to find joy in family, human connection and simple things that cannot be taken away from you so easily.

bobthechef 9y ago
Poles often say that there is a tendency among Polish have-nots to be jealous of the haves.
- percival_krusen 9y ago
  ...is there anywhere this is not true?
- badpun 9y ago
  I wouldn't say exactly jealous - I'd say more often it's outrage about how a lot of those rich folks came to money - via crass worker exploitation (SE-Asia style) or stealing millions from the government. A rich person is often perceived as someone who you wouldn't want to hang round, as he/she's likely to be very morally dubious.
fyfy18 9y ago
Here in Lithuania that is true for the majority of people who don’t have money, however those that do and ‘new money’ are much more concerned with material wealth than those from more Western countries IMO. I was working in Rome a few years ago and people there are very practical with cars, they are small and cheap. On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here.
- badpun 9y ago
  > On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here. Interesting. When I was visiting Malmo (in suposedly egalitarian Sweden) I was shocked about the amount of premium cars (Audis, BMWs etc.) on the streets. Seemed anything but egalitarian to me. I had similar impressions in Germany or the UK. It's interesting why Rome is different.
  - fyfy18 9y ago
    Rome may be a bit of a bad example, as although it’s the capital of Italy, it isn’t that wealthy a city. However even on trips to other parts of the country (I was there for over a year) it appeared to be the same situation. There’s definitely an advantage to having a small car in Italy (I had a Prius and it felt too big), but most people had cars that would even feel old here (where most people have 2nd or 3rd hand cars).

Tade0 9y ago

> At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. There are a few factors at play here. At least in Poland women more often than men choose to leave rural areas in favor of cities and that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Men here are still regarded as providers and status, or at least status signaling, matters - one obvious example is how much people(men) spend on cars.

dozzie 9y ago
> [...] that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? > Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. > Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Yes, because suicide is a primary or at least a major reason that men die (or die young).
- Tade0 9y ago
  You're ignoring a lot of subtelties here. > I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? Warsaw is a great example, but ironically these womens' standards are pretty high - all in all they didn't leave their 30k-something-souls towns for the Big City to marry a man who doesn't enjoy a decent social status himself. > Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. Anecdata: my sister was born in 86' and is currently single and childless, just like a few of her friends. On one hand they're pressured to do something about this, on the other there aren't many eligible bachelors available because well, they're taken. This song[0] illustrates this point beautifully. Hell, the problem is so visible right now that a TV show dedicated to making couples out of (most of the time)well-off farmers and city-dwelling women[1] was created. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland