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I think what's really missing from the discussion is the simple fact that if creative jobs (artist, writer) or less technical jobs paid as well as Soft Eng jobs

I think what's really missing from the discussion is the simple fact that if creative jobs (artist, writer) or less technical jobs paid as well as Soft Eng jobs then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Alternatively, we wouldn't be having this discussion if our society did not largely judge a man's success in life by his wealth (and the things money can buy, like a nice car). I guess what I'm saying is that, if I had the choice, I would rather be a sculptor making the same salary as a Senior Soft Eng than an engineer at a large company. Too bad our society isn't set up like that, eh?

scarmig 9y ago
It's kind of sad. There are jobs I'd rather do, but I've consciously chosen one that I like less because it has more status and pays more, in significant part because it has improved my dating prospects. It'd be interesting to see what proportion of the pay gap/high status job gap comes from different sociosexual incentives, though I have a hard time imagining a good way to measure that.
- badestrand 9y ago
  > It'd be interesting to see what proportion of the pay gap/high status job gap comes from different sociosexual incentives Obviously this is highly speculative but for quite some time now I have the theory that the former Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. This would also explain the rise of the Chinese economy in the recent decades, as they have a surplus of men and I heard that they need to own at least a flat and a car to have chances on the dating market.
  - badpun 9y ago
    > Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. I am from an ex-Soviet block country (Poland). I agree that people in here are less obsessed with success and money than the Westernerns. This also translates into dating/marriage choices of women. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but I think it can be justified by looking at our history. Over time, so much terrible things happened here that people learned not to create too strong attachments to material things and societial hierarchies (which disappear when you're invaded by another country). It was wiser to try to find joy in family, human connection and simple things that cannot be taken away from you so easily.
    - bobthechef 9y ago
      Poles often say that there is a tendency among Polish have-nots to be jealous of the haves.
      - percival_krusen 9y ago
        ...is there anywhere this is not true?
      - badpun 9y ago
        I wouldn't say exactly jealous - I'd say more often it's outrage about how a lot of those rich folks came to money - via crass worker exploitation (SE-Asia style) or stealing millions from the government. A rich person is often perceived as someone who you wouldn't want to hang round, as he/she's likely to be very morally dubious.
    - fyfy18 9y ago
      Here in Lithuania that is true for the majority of people who don’t have money, however those that do and ‘new money’ are much more concerned with material wealth than those from more Western countries IMO. I was working in Rome a few years ago and people there are very practical with cars, they are small and cheap. On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here.
      - badpun 9y ago
        > On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here. Interesting. When I was visiting Malmo (in suposedly egalitarian Sweden) I was shocked about the amount of premium cars (Audis, BMWs etc.) on the streets. Seemed anything but egalitarian to me. I had similar impressions in Germany or the UK. It's interesting why Rome is different.
  - Tade0 9y ago
    > At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. There are a few factors at play here. At least in Poland women more often than men choose to leave rural areas in favor of cities and that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Men here are still regarded as providers and status, or at least status signaling, matters - one obvious example is how much people(men) spend on cars.
    - dozzie 9y ago
      > [...] that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? > Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. > Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Yes, because suicide is a primary or at least a major reason that men die (or die young).
      - Tade0 9y ago
        You're ignoring a lot of subtelties here. > I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? Warsaw is a great example, but ironically these womens' standards are pretty high - all in all they didn't leave their 30k-something-souls towns for the Big City to marry a man who doesn't enjoy a decent social status himself. > Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. Anecdata: my sister was born in 86' and is currently single and childless, just like a few of her friends. On one hand they're pressured to do something about this, on the other there aren't many eligible bachelors available because well, they're taken. This song[0] illustrates this point beautifully. Hell, the problem is so visible right now that a TV show dedicated to making couples out of (most of the time)well-off farmers and city-dwelling women[1] was created. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland
- conanbatt 9y ago
  > It's kind of sad. There are jobs I'd rather do, but I've consciously chosen one that I like less because it has more status and pays more, in significant part because it has improved my dating prospects. How is that sad. You've actively decided to trade more of your effort to get more of other people's effort. Its a win win. And you can stop at any time.
  - scarmig 9y ago
    Obviously that's a choice, and obviously I can choose to do otherwise at any time. That said, it's a choice I didn't choose to have. I'd much sooner choose to live in a world where gender norms would allow me to both a) pursue the things I want to pursue and b) have as much dating success doing them as I do now (a fair amount, having led up to several successful long term relationships) instead of then (going months without a date while actively trying to date). Additionally, I question the viewpoints of people who think that the pay gap come purely from evil men discriminating against deserving women instead of social norms that are enforced in significant part by women.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      > That said, it's a choice I didn't choose to have. I'd much sooner choose to live in a world where gender norms would allow me to both a) pursue the things I want to pursue and b) have as much dating success doing them as I do now (a fair amount, having led up to several successful long term relationships) instead of then (going months without a date while actively trying to date). I would also like to live in a world where I get to do whatever I want and get from other people whatever I want. However, we live in a world where we have to give and take, so we need to give something we dont want to give to take something we want..
lulmerchant 9y ago
Everybody gets paid the same, without any consideration to their productivity, or the level and scarcity of their skills. Congratulations, you’ve invented communism.
- dozzie 9y ago
  Your comment is close to being right (or maybe is right), but this was not the point of the parent poster.
  - lulmerchant 9y ago
    The poster was asserting that market forces don’t determine remuneration according to their satisfaction, and that instead people should be remunerated according to what the poster thinks they deserve. How is criticising this as communism not valid?
    - dozzie 9y ago
      > The poster was asserting that market forces don’t determine remuneration according to their satisfaction, and that instead people should be remunerated according to what the poster thinks they deserve. No. lobotryas was saying that we're only discussing shortage of women writing software because it's a well-paying office job. If anything else was kept intact, but either the job was low wage or other jobs that women currently choose much more often were paid as highly, we wouldn't have the discussion about too little women writing software. > How is criticising this as communism not valid? Because it was not the lobotryas' point.
    - lobotryas 9y ago
      You are reading much too deeply into my comment and thereby missing the point entirely. Dozzie's reply covers my intended point very well. Mine was not a post saying "things should be a certain way" or even "our society's values are misaligned". No, I just observed that if we want a certain standard of living in a certain location then the path for us is all but predetermined and that this is a bummer.
- 9y ago
skookumchuck 9y ago
Lots of artists and writers get paid far more than software engineers.
- dang 9y ago
  > I, as a software engineer, demand to be paid as much as writer J.K. Rowling. "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- loco5niner 9y ago
  probably about the same number of basketball players, and boxers, and CEO's. The point is, it is uncommon to reach that level in those given fields because the average person gets average pay.
badpun 9y ago
Welcome to society with a million painters, sculptors, musicians, writers and scientists, but only a handful of janitors and software engineers.
- michaelchisari 9y ago
  Sounds wonderful.
  - throwaway84742 9y ago
    Only sounds wonderful until your toilet clogs up.
    - sdenton4 9y ago
      And gets worse when you try to use an app to report the clog, only to find that the internet pipes are also clogged.
- lobotryas 9y ago
  You are assuming that we have few people who would actually enjoy being a janitor or plumber and I can assure you that's wrong. People don't go into those professions because of economic and societal pressures (something you are perpetuating by implying that tue aforementioned are not prestigious or 'good' professions). More over, my point is not that everyone should or would even want to become an artist. It is the fact that many people are not given a balanced choice.
  - strken 9y ago
    From an n=2 sample size, both our office cleaners come in after their day jobs because they want to earn a bit of cash on the side. Absent a reward of some kind, it's hard to imagine why anyone would bother cleaning someone else's floor.
    - kiriakasis 9y ago
psyc 9y ago
Same here. I’d have a hard time making half as much doing anything else. If I could, I would program as a hobby instead of the other way around. I consider software development low QOL as a full time job.
jm__87 9y ago
I would disagree that our society (presumably, North American society) judges a man's success solely by his wealth. Our society values men who are responsible - who can provide the best life for their family and protect them. I imagine if you had a ton of wealth but spent it only on yourself and didn't take care of your family, society would not deem you a success.
- dummyfunnytoo 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure as long as you drove around in the right car and lived in the right house while you neglected your family, society would still see you as successful. I wish it weren't the case but it seems to be reality.
  - jm__87 9y ago
    At a superficial level you would appear to be successful, as anyone who doesn't know you just sees the house and the car. As soon as anyone heard that you spend all your money on yourself and let your family eat scraps, I think most people would hate you. So the question is, do you care more about what some random stranger thinks about you or what people who actually know you think about you?
    - yorwba 9y ago
      If your family ate foie gras from golden plates, people would hate you, too. Success and approval are two different things. Someone may think that you are successful, but using that success in an irresponsible manner.
      - jm__87 9y ago
        I think it is just OPs wording that got me arguing this point: "a man's success in life". Not a man's success in gaining material wealth. The argument I was trying to make (rather poorly it seems) is that people don't normally measure life success solely by the number in your bank account when you die, there are other measures as well.
odessacubbage 9y ago
why don't you have a choice?
stjohnswarts 9y ago
You get paid based on demand, not on artistic ability. You could be the best scientist in the world with 4 degrees and if there was demand for your degrees, you'd be no better off than the sculpture working out of his basement when he got home from his barista job.
deviationblue 9y ago
In a way it is. Look at what some actors/musicians and athletes get paid, it depends on what people want to buy the most/what entertains them the most. The fact that society doesn't pay more for sculpture, writing (unless you get really famous) or whatever speaks to our preferences. Or speaks to what has already been established as profitable.
bobthechef 9y ago
> I think what's really missing from the discussion is the simple fact that if creative jobs (artist, writer) or less technical jobs paid as well as Soft Eng jobs then we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's largely a function of markets. You make it sound like it's a policy of some kind, or some kind of social problem that needs fixing. Also, you yourself are guilty of exaggerating the value of money. > Alternatively, we wouldn't be having this discussion if our society did not largely judge a man's success in life by his wealth (and the things money can buy, like a nice car). Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Associate with people that value similar things, not with people whose highest values are cars and money. > I guess what I'm saying is that, if I had the choice, I would rather be a sculptor making the same salary as a Senior Soft Eng than an engineer at a large company. Again with the money. If you want to be a sculptor, be a sculptor. > Too bad our society isn't set up like that, eh? Set up? Nothing is "set up". You seem to be living under the impression that there's this abstract looming thing called "society" that lords over the affairs of man, and that you are this lone ego occupying its center. Society is the set of individual human beings in a network of a variety of relationships. Money doesn't fall from the sky. Who's going to pay you for your sculptures? Are people supposed to pay you just so you can do what you want, market demand be damned? (Btw, some sculptors make ludicrous amounts of money. Many probably make okay money, though apparently the avg. salary for sculptors, painters and illustrators in Delaware is the same as the average for software engineers.)
- aianus 9y ago
  > Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Women do and I care because I like sex. When you have a luxury downtown apartment with a view and a sports car, it's playing the game on easy mode.
  - astura 9y ago
    Why do you want to waste your time with the kind of woman who would only speak to you if you have a luxury downtown apartment and sports car if you don't want those things for yourself? Sounds like a recipe for resentment and unhappiness. Why not aim to have sex with women whose values more align with your own? - A woman who earns more than her husband
posterboy 9y ago
> Alternatively, we wouldn't be having this discussion if our society did not largely judge a man's success in life by his wealth (and the things money can buy, like a nice car). They don't. They judge the success by the succession of success. Money is just a byproduct and used as proxy. Perhaps that's more pronounced where-ever you are. But boasting about money increases the chances that it will be lost soon.

scarmig 9y ago

It's kind of sad. There are jobs I'd rather do, but I've consciously chosen one that I like less because it has more status and pays more, in significant part because it has improved my dating prospects. It'd be interesting to see what proportion of the pay gap/high status job gap comes from different sociosexual incentives, though I have a hard time imagining a good way to measure that.

badestrand 9y ago
> It'd be interesting to see what proportion of the pay gap/high status job gap comes from different sociosexual incentives Obviously this is highly speculative but for quite some time now I have the theory that the former Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. This would also explain the rise of the Chinese economy in the recent decades, as they have a surplus of men and I heard that they need to own at least a flat and a car to have chances on the dating market.
- badpun 9y ago
  > Sowiet Union states (Russia et al) and large parts of Latin America don't progress as much simply because male financial success isn't tied as much to better dating options. At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. I am from an ex-Soviet block country (Poland). I agree that people in here are less obsessed with success and money than the Westernerns. This also translates into dating/marriage choices of women. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but I think it can be justified by looking at our history. Over time, so much terrible things happened here that people learned not to create too strong attachments to material things and societial hierarchies (which disappear when you're invaded by another country). It was wiser to try to find joy in family, human connection and simple things that cannot be taken away from you so easily.
  - bobthechef 9y ago
    Poles often say that there is a tendency among Polish have-nots to be jealous of the haves.
    - percival_krusen 9y ago
      ...is there anywhere this is not true?
    - badpun 9y ago
      I wouldn't say exactly jealous - I'd say more often it's outrage about how a lot of those rich folks came to money - via crass worker exploitation (SE-Asia style) or stealing millions from the government. A rich person is often perceived as someone who you wouldn't want to hang round, as he/she's likely to be very morally dubious.
  - fyfy18 9y ago
    Here in Lithuania that is true for the majority of people who don’t have money, however those that do and ‘new money’ are much more concerned with material wealth than those from more Western countries IMO. I was working in Rome a few years ago and people there are very practical with cars, they are small and cheap. On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here.
    - badpun 9y ago
      > On the other hand here they are very much status symbols. People like to drive big and powerful German cars - you would never see someone driving a Fiat Cinquecento, even though they are much more appropriate for wages here. Interesting. When I was visiting Malmo (in suposedly egalitarian Sweden) I was shocked about the amount of premium cars (Audis, BMWs etc.) on the streets. Seemed anything but egalitarian to me. I had similar impressions in Germany or the UK. It's interesting why Rome is different.
- Tade0 9y ago
  > At least to me as a traveler it seems that many men in those countries have a wide choice of attractive girls, regardless of how well they are off. There are a few factors at play here. At least in Poland women more often than men choose to leave rural areas in favor of cities and that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Men here are still regarded as providers and status, or at least status signaling, matters - one obvious example is how much people(men) spend on cars.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    > [...] that results in city-dwelling populations dominated by women(often single) and rural population dominated by men(also single). I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? > Also there's a social stigma connected to being a woman over 30 who is still single/childless. Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. > Lastly in post-soviet countries men commit suicide significantly more often than women - often early in life - which further skewes the gender ratio. Yes, because suicide is a primary or at least a major reason that men die (or die young).
    - Tade0 9y ago
      You're ignoring a lot of subtelties here. > I'd love to live in a place where this were true. Which cities exactly have such thing going on? Warsaw is a great example, but ironically these womens' standards are pretty high - all in all they didn't leave their 30k-something-souls towns for the Big City to marry a man who doesn't enjoy a decent social status himself. > Or is there? Also, either there is stigma for being single woman or there are vast numbers of single women. Both at the same time cannot be true in even somewhat stable system, and it's hard to argue that Polish cities are in total chaos. Anecdata: my sister was born in 86' and is currently single and childless, just like a few of her friends. On one hand they're pressured to do something about this, on the other there aren't many eligible bachelors available because well, they're taken. This song[0] illustrates this point beautifully. Hell, the problem is so visible right now that a TV show dedicated to making couples out of (most of the time)well-off farmers and city-dwelling women[1] was created. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0 [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland https://www.youtube.com/user/FremantleMediaPoland
conanbatt 9y ago
> It's kind of sad. There are jobs I'd rather do, but I've consciously chosen one that I like less because it has more status and pays more, in significant part because it has improved my dating prospects. How is that sad. You've actively decided to trade more of your effort to get more of other people's effort. Its a win win. And you can stop at any time.
- scarmig 9y ago
  Obviously that's a choice, and obviously I can choose to do otherwise at any time. That said, it's a choice I didn't choose to have. I'd much sooner choose to live in a world where gender norms would allow me to both a) pursue the things I want to pursue and b) have as much dating success doing them as I do now (a fair amount, having led up to several successful long term relationships) instead of then (going months without a date while actively trying to date). Additionally, I question the viewpoints of people who think that the pay gap come purely from evil men discriminating against deserving women instead of social norms that are enforced in significant part by women.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    > That said, it's a choice I didn't choose to have. I'd much sooner choose to live in a world where gender norms would allow me to both a) pursue the things I want to pursue and b) have as much dating success doing them as I do now (a fair amount, having led up to several successful long term relationships) instead of then (going months without a date while actively trying to date). I would also like to live in a world where I get to do whatever I want and get from other people whatever I want. However, we live in a world where we have to give and take, so we need to give something we dont want to give to take something we want..

lulmerchant 9y ago

Everybody gets paid the same, without any consideration to their productivity, or the level and scarcity of their skills. Congratulations, you’ve invented communism.

dozzie 9y ago
Your comment is close to being right (or maybe is right), but this was not the point of the parent poster.
- lulmerchant 9y ago
  The poster was asserting that market forces don’t determine remuneration according to their satisfaction, and that instead people should be remunerated according to what the poster thinks they deserve. How is criticising this as communism not valid?
  - dozzie 9y ago
    > The poster was asserting that market forces don’t determine remuneration according to their satisfaction, and that instead people should be remunerated according to what the poster thinks they deserve. No. lobotryas was saying that we're only discussing shortage of women writing software because it's a well-paying office job. If anything else was kept intact, but either the job was low wage or other jobs that women currently choose much more often were paid as highly, we wouldn't have the discussion about too little women writing software. > How is criticising this as communism not valid? Because it was not the lobotryas' point.
  - lobotryas 9y ago
    You are reading much too deeply into my comment and thereby missing the point entirely. Dozzie's reply covers my intended point very well. Mine was not a post saying "things should be a certain way" or even "our society's values are misaligned". No, I just observed that if we want a certain standard of living in a certain location then the path for us is all but predetermined and that this is a bummer.
9y ago

skookumchuck 9y ago

Lots of artists and writers get paid far more than software engineers.

dang 9y ago
> I, as a software engineer, demand to be paid as much as writer J.K. Rowling. "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
loco5niner 9y ago
probably about the same number of basketball players, and boxers, and CEO's. The point is, it is uncommon to reach that level in those given fields because the average person gets average pay.

badpun 9y ago

Welcome to society with a million painters, sculptors, musicians, writers and scientists, but only a handful of janitors and software engineers.

michaelchisari 9y ago
Sounds wonderful.
- throwaway84742 9y ago
  Only sounds wonderful until your toilet clogs up.
  - sdenton4 9y ago
    And gets worse when you try to use an app to report the clog, only to find that the internet pipes are also clogged.
lobotryas 9y ago
You are assuming that we have few people who would actually enjoy being a janitor or plumber and I can assure you that's wrong. People don't go into those professions because of economic and societal pressures (something you are perpetuating by implying that tue aforementioned are not prestigious or 'good' professions). More over, my point is not that everyone should or would even want to become an artist. It is the fact that many people are not given a balanced choice.
- strken 9y ago
  From an n=2 sample size, both our office cleaners come in after their day jobs because they want to earn a bit of cash on the side. Absent a reward of some kind, it's hard to imagine why anyone would bother cleaning someone else's floor.
  - kiriakasis 9y ago

psyc 9y ago

Same here. I’d have a hard time making half as much doing anything else. If I could, I would program as a hobby instead of the other way around. I consider software development low QOL as a full time job.

jm__87 9y ago

I would disagree that our society (presumably, North American society) judges a man's success solely by his wealth. Our society values men who are responsible - who can provide the best life for their family and protect them. I imagine if you had a ton of wealth but spent it only on yourself and didn't take care of your family, society would not deem you a success.

dummyfunnytoo 9y ago
I'm pretty sure as long as you drove around in the right car and lived in the right house while you neglected your family, society would still see you as successful. I wish it weren't the case but it seems to be reality.
- jm__87 9y ago
  At a superficial level you would appear to be successful, as anyone who doesn't know you just sees the house and the car. As soon as anyone heard that you spend all your money on yourself and let your family eat scraps, I think most people would hate you. So the question is, do you care more about what some random stranger thinks about you or what people who actually know you think about you?
  - yorwba 9y ago
    If your family ate foie gras from golden plates, people would hate you, too. Success and approval are two different things. Someone may think that you are successful, but using that success in an irresponsible manner.
    - jm__87 9y ago
      I think it is just OPs wording that got me arguing this point: "a man's success in life". Not a man's success in gaining material wealth. The argument I was trying to make (rather poorly it seems) is that people don't normally measure life success solely by the number in your bank account when you die, there are other measures as well.

odessacubbage 9y ago

why don't you have a choice?

stjohnswarts 9y ago

You get paid based on demand, not on artistic ability. You could be the best scientist in the world with 4 degrees and if there was demand for your degrees, you'd be no better off than the sculpture working out of his basement when he got home from his barista job.

deviationblue 9y ago

In a way it is. Look at what some actors/musicians and athletes get paid, it depends on what people want to buy the most/what entertains them the most. The fact that society doesn't pay more for sculpture, writing (unless you get really famous) or whatever speaks to our preferences. Or speaks to what has already been established as profitable.

bobthechef 9y ago

> I think what's really missing from the discussion is the simple fact that if creative jobs (artist, writer) or less technical jobs paid as well as Soft Eng jobs then we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's largely a function of markets. You make it sound like it's a policy of some kind, or some kind of social problem that needs fixing. Also, you yourself are guilty of exaggerating the value of money. > Alternatively, we wouldn't be having this discussion if our society did not largely judge a man's success in life by his wealth (and the things money can buy, like a nice car). Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Associate with people that value similar things, not with people whose highest values are cars and money. > I guess what I'm saying is that, if I had the choice, I would rather be a sculptor making the same salary as a Senior Soft Eng than an engineer at a large company. Again with the money. If you want to be a sculptor, be a sculptor. > Too bad our society isn't set up like that, eh? Set up? Nothing is "set up". You seem to be living under the impression that there's this abstract looming thing called "society" that lords over the affairs of man, and that you are this lone ego occupying its center. Society is the set of individual human beings in a network of a variety of relationships. Money doesn't fall from the sky. Who's going to pay you for your sculptures? Are people supposed to pay you just so you can do what you want, market demand be damned? (Btw, some sculptors make ludicrous amounts of money. Many probably make okay money, though apparently the avg. salary for sculptors, painters and illustrators in Delaware is the same as the average for software engineers.)

aianus 9y ago
> Who's judging you? Some people might, but what do you care? Women do and I care because I like sex. When you have a luxury downtown apartment with a view and a sports car, it's playing the game on easy mode.
- astura 9y ago
  Why do you want to waste your time with the kind of woman who would only speak to you if you have a luxury downtown apartment and sports car if you don't want those things for yourself? Sounds like a recipe for resentment and unhappiness. Why not aim to have sex with women whose values more align with your own? - A woman who earns more than her husband

posterboy 9y ago

> Alternatively, we wouldn't be having this discussion if our society did not largely judge a man's success in life by his wealth (and the things money can buy, like a nice car). They don't. They judge the success by the succession of success. Money is just a byproduct and used as proxy. Perhaps that's more pronounced where-ever you are. But boasting about money increases the chances that it will be lost soon.