4 ms·

I understand Google/Alphabet is doing the "absolute regulatory minimum" here, as it usually tends to do in everything else, but what's the point of having a sel

by mtgx 9y ago

I understand Google/Alphabet is doing the "absolute regulatory minimum" here, as it usually tends to do in everything else, but what's the point of having a self-driving car with a wheel you can't access in case of a self-driving system breakdown? The manual control should be easily accessed by the passengers. Will Waymo even allow people to sit in the front seat at the wheel and allow them to control it whenever they want?

Buge 9y ago
In the video inside the car, there are buttons on the ceiling for the middle row of seats saying "help" and "pull over".
gpm 9y ago
> what's the point of having a self-driving car with a wheel you can't access in case of a self-driving system breakdown? Regulatory arbitrage. Also if the car is really broken down, as in doesn't start, you can get into the front seat and steer + push like a normal car, or emergency services can do that after an accident and so on. Likewise if the sensor system fails this provides a cheaper method than calling a tow truck to move it back to their shop. In normal situations where manual intervention is required, I believe the plan is to have a Waymo employee drive it remotely, not have the passengers drive it. Apart from the obvious business reasons for this (partially discussed below, also insurance), this should mean that you don't even know how to drive to use one of these cars, which is a clear advantage. > Will Waymo even allow people to sit in the front seat at the wheel and allow them to control it whenever they want? Why the hell would they do that? The whole purpose of this vehicle is self driving car research, they don't get anything out of letting you drive it, so they'd just be providing you a free car.
- ggggtez 9y ago
  >Why the hell would they do that? Hah, my thoughts exactly. Besides, when was the last time you jumped in a taxi and told the taxi driver the let you drive? Is that even a thing people do anywhere in the world?
  - taneq 9y ago
    Apparently yes. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572241/Michael-Schumacher-drives-taxi-in-airport-dash.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572241/Michael-S...
- 908087 9y ago
  > In normal situations where manual intervention is required, I believe the plan is to have a Waymo employee drive it remotely, not have the passengers drive it. What if the car doesn't have a network connection for whatever reason?
  - gpm 9y ago
    Hopefully it doesn't need a network connection to drive... But if doesn't have a network connection, and manual intervention is required, that's just like the "sensor failed" case except you might have to rely on the passengers contacting waymo to tell them where the car is. Which they'll be motivated too since they are somewhat stranded.
    - 908087 9y ago
      My point was that it would be impossible for someone to remotely pilot a vehicle that had lost connectivity.
benjaminl 9y ago
The reason why the steering wheel is there is due to these cars being modified Chrysler Pacifica minivans. It is easier all around just to leave the wheel as it. There is no need for a passenger to take manual control. If the car or the self driving system has a problem. The car will pull over and another Waymo self driving call will arrive to allow you to complete your journey.
- fstuff 9y ago
  there's a company testing a remote driver system to take control of self driving cars when they can't handle a problem ahead. https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/ces-2018-phantom-auto-demonstrates-first-remotecontrolled-car-on-public-roads https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sel...
- MarkMc 9y ago
  This reminds me of Stephen J Gould's explanation for why men have nipples: In utero the male and female fetus initially develop the same features, and only after the nipples have been formed do males and females start to look different. Nipples aren't useful for men, but men have them because they are useful for women.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > If the car or the self driving system has a problem. The car will pull over and another Waymo self driving call will arrive to allow you to complete your journey. So if a (perhaps malicious) environmental configuration consistently causes Waymo cars to fail, you’ll just collect an ever-increasing number of them at that point?
  - saurik 9y ago
    A lot like ants encountering the inside of a freezer. In this case, though, a human is going to be told "there is a broken car here someone has to come collect", and they will hopefully notice if they see two or three of them at the same location (seeing as how cars don't travel instantly so there is time to notice stuff in general).
mastax 9y ago
My guess: Letting customers drive a car is an entirely different regulatory and liability hurdle than letting them ride in one.
D-Coder 9y ago
"what's the point of having a self-driving car with a wheel you can't access in case of a self-driving system breakdown?" If you sent your seven-year-old to baseball practice in your self-driving car, or you got wasted at a party, you're better off if the car stops and calls for help than letting someone incompetent try to take over.
- 908087 9y ago
  That would be great, if not having the ability to drive was the only reason you wouldn't normally send a 7 year old out on their own in a car to travel a number or miles without an adult present.
sseth 9y ago
I think the point is the car has to be able to drive completely independently if we are to allow cars to travel without anybody inside at all, which includes handling emergency situations. And of course as some others have pointed out the people inside may be old, handicapped, children etc - expecting them to take control may make things worse. As far as front seats are concerned, why even have a front seat? Have people sit in a circle facing each other, with a table in the middle - so you can have a conversation. Not having a wheel allows us to reimagine the interiors of cars which are currently built around the driver.
- stormbrew 9y ago
  I don't even think you have to appeal to people being old or children. The idea that a distracted human being is going to be able to take over for a machine with 360 degree vision in an emergency is absurd, no matter how able they are.
  - sseth 9y ago
    The case I was responding to was one of car breakdown. Of course the other case would be an emergency while the car is moving (which is what you are talking of) and here i think the evidence is compelling. To hand over control to a distracted driver at the worst possible moment is not likely to work well. It actually does not work well even for trained pilots, as the Air France crash some years ago showed.

by mtgx 9y ago

Buge 9y ago

In the video inside the car, there are buttons on the ceiling for the middle row of seats saying "help" and "pull over".

gpm 9y ago

> what's the point of having a self-driving car with a wheel you can't access in case of a self-driving system breakdown? Regulatory arbitrage. Also if the car is really broken down, as in doesn't start, you can get into the front seat and steer + push like a normal car, or emergency services can do that after an accident and so on. Likewise if the sensor system fails this provides a cheaper method than calling a tow truck to move it back to their shop. In normal situations where manual intervention is required, I believe the plan is to have a Waymo employee drive it remotely, not have the passengers drive it. Apart from the obvious business reasons for this (partially discussed below, also insurance), this should mean that you don't even know how to drive to use one of these cars, which is a clear advantage. > Will Waymo even allow people to sit in the front seat at the wheel and allow them to control it whenever they want? Why the hell would they do that? The whole purpose of this vehicle is self driving car research, they don't get anything out of letting you drive it, so they'd just be providing you a free car.

ggggtez 9y ago
>Why the hell would they do that? Hah, my thoughts exactly. Besides, when was the last time you jumped in a taxi and told the taxi driver the let you drive? Is that even a thing people do anywhere in the world?
- taneq 9y ago
  Apparently yes. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572241/Michael-Schumacher-drives-taxi-in-airport-dash.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572241/Michael-S...
908087 9y ago
> In normal situations where manual intervention is required, I believe the plan is to have a Waymo employee drive it remotely, not have the passengers drive it. What if the car doesn't have a network connection for whatever reason?
- gpm 9y ago
  Hopefully it doesn't need a network connection to drive... But if doesn't have a network connection, and manual intervention is required, that's just like the "sensor failed" case except you might have to rely on the passengers contacting waymo to tell them where the car is. Which they'll be motivated too since they are somewhat stranded.
  - 908087 9y ago
    My point was that it would be impossible for someone to remotely pilot a vehicle that had lost connectivity.

benjaminl 9y ago

The reason why the steering wheel is there is due to these cars being modified Chrysler Pacifica minivans. It is easier all around just to leave the wheel as it. There is no need for a passenger to take manual control. If the car or the self driving system has a problem. The car will pull over and another Waymo self driving call will arrive to allow you to complete your journey.

fstuff 9y ago
there's a company testing a remote driver system to take control of self driving cars when they can't handle a problem ahead. https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/ces-2018-phantom-auto-demonstrates-first-remotecontrolled-car-on-public-roads https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sel...
MarkMc 9y ago
This reminds me of Stephen J Gould's explanation for why men have nipples: In utero the male and female fetus initially develop the same features, and only after the nipples have been formed do males and females start to look different. Nipples aren't useful for men, but men have them because they are useful for women.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> If the car or the self driving system has a problem. The car will pull over and another Waymo self driving call will arrive to allow you to complete your journey. So if a (perhaps malicious) environmental configuration consistently causes Waymo cars to fail, you’ll just collect an ever-increasing number of them at that point?
- saurik 9y ago
  A lot like ants encountering the inside of a freezer. In this case, though, a human is going to be told "there is a broken car here someone has to come collect", and they will hopefully notice if they see two or three of them at the same location (seeing as how cars don't travel instantly so there is time to notice stuff in general).

mastax 9y ago

My guess: Letting customers drive a car is an entirely different regulatory and liability hurdle than letting them ride in one.

D-Coder 9y ago

"what's the point of having a self-driving car with a wheel you can't access in case of a self-driving system breakdown?" If you sent your seven-year-old to baseball practice in your self-driving car, or you got wasted at a party, you're better off if the car stops and calls for help than letting someone incompetent try to take over.

908087 9y ago
That would be great, if not having the ability to drive was the only reason you wouldn't normally send a 7 year old out on their own in a car to travel a number or miles without an adult present.

sseth 9y ago

I think the point is the car has to be able to drive completely independently if we are to allow cars to travel without anybody inside at all, which includes handling emergency situations. And of course as some others have pointed out the people inside may be old, handicapped, children etc - expecting them to take control may make things worse. As far as front seats are concerned, why even have a front seat? Have people sit in a circle facing each other, with a table in the middle - so you can have a conversation. Not having a wheel allows us to reimagine the interiors of cars which are currently built around the driver.

stormbrew 9y ago
I don't even think you have to appeal to people being old or children. The idea that a distracted human being is going to be able to take over for a machine with 360 degree vision in an emergency is absurd, no matter how able they are.
- sseth 9y ago
  The case I was responding to was one of car breakdown. Of course the other case would be an emergency while the car is moving (which is what you are talking of) and here i think the evidence is compelling. To hand over control to a distracted driver at the worst possible moment is not likely to work well. It actually does not work well even for trained pilots, as the Air France crash some years ago showed.