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I wouldn't call Linux toxic but I see your point. Have you considered the possibility that your premise is actually correct? Just few examples from the top of

I wouldn't call Linux toxic but I see your point. Have you considered the possibility that your premise is actually correct? Just few examples from the top of my head: * Bill Gates was aggressive office bully and has admitted this himself. * Steve Jobs was known to be nasty and unreasonable. * RMS is notoriously difficult person. * Theo de Raadt is really something (OpenBSD, OpenSSH, NetBSD) * Ulrich Drepper (glibc, ...) Above examples are outspoken SOB's. There is another case of engineering leaders who use passive aggression and 'niceness' to rule in a way that can become very unwelcoming. People have to lead with the personality they have. Management can be leaned and management style can be changed. Leadership skills are tied to personality.

ken 9y ago
I'm willing to admit the possibility, but I'd like to point out that half your examples are commercial products. There's a big difference in my mind between "get paid to work for someone on a product" and "volunteer your time for someone on a free project". In particular, most business people I've worked for have been, well, let's say 'ruthless', even with their own employees. If I'm going to work at a company, I don't feel I have a lot of choice here. Most open-source maintainers are nice and reasonable (perhaps out of necessity), so if I'm donating open-source patches, I do have a choice there.
city41 9y ago
Is it their temperaments that lead them to success, or is it their willingness to never cave and always do what they feel is right? I'm not a fan of confrontation, and in the past have allowed features to get added to my projects that I didn't think was right. I regret it. Had I been willing to have some uncomfortable conversations, the project would have been better.
- Nokinside 9y ago
  It is said that every successful enterprise requires three men – a dreamer, a businessman, and a son-of-a-bitch. If you are starting on your own, you have to be all three.
- iforgotpassword 9y ago
  I think it is. I remember when in 2009, all over Germany (and Europe) students went on strike because they had several issues with how universities changed in the past years. Students occupied large parts of the campus and started to work out their demands. They decided to try and go by a grassroots democracy. Everything was discussed and reconciled with polls in the biggest lecture hall. The whole thing made big news, was on all TV channels, the nation waited for the students' demands, and they kept arguing, and discussing, and the nation kept waiting, and then they argued about the order of phrases, single words, as long as a single person had a complaint, and finally after half of the students involved gave up and no TV channel reported on the topic anymore, some final document was handed over that nobody remembers, just as nobody remembers the response to it. This is a pretty stark counter example, but to me it was a huge revelation to actually be part of this experience and see it fall into pieces. It shows that you simply can't always be nice to everyone and make it right for every single individual. Sometimes you have to be that asshole that leads the way and steps onto other people's feet, because a suboptimal decision made in time is often better than discussing every detail to death. A rough tone is simply (and unfortunately) an effective way to assert your position. Call it alpha male 2.0 or whatever. This realization also helped me dealing with that kind of person, not taking it too personal. As for Linus, I feel like these kind of rants are really an exception, he's either in normal/neutral mode, or goes all apeshit, which I think makes it rather easy to deal with him (never did so far though). In comparison, the passive arrogance that a certain developer of some init system sometimes shows seems much more annoying to deal with (also never had an interaction though).
specialist 9y ago
I was asked to run for office. So I became a politician. I always play to win. So I adopted the mannerisms, attire, speech patterns of other successful politicians. I've seen many others attempt this transformation. Some are naturals. Some learn fast. Most fail (like me). My point: The audience demands politicians play the role of politician. Over time, the person becomes the role (because how we talk changes how we think). I don't think the person Linus could be successful playing the role of Linus Master of the Kernel without adopting that persona. So if he wasn't that way beforehand, he adapted. I'm not excusing bad behavior.
- styfle 9y ago
  You have piqued my interested. Is the problem at a social level? We want leaders who are assertive and strong willed? I think most organizations suffer from this problem, not just governments. For example, there are megachurches[0] that have gained huge followings only to collapse due to leaders with this personality and the will to hold onto power. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Hill_Church#Church_reorganization_in_2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Hill_Church#Church_reorga...
  - specialist 9y ago
    I don't know. I wish I did. -- Though I suspected, I didn't fully realize how much "playing the part" mattered until I participated in the endorsement process before, during and after my own candidacy. I used to care about a candidate's policies, platform, positions. Now I only care about a candidate's ability to get elected. Before, I didn't understand the "realpolitick" viewpoint, and actively criticized it. Imagine my chagrin after I flipped my worldview. To get a glimpse of what I'm talking about, watch a bunch of endorsement interviews. Many jurisdictions post a video voter's guide. Some orgs and publications will post their interviews. Better is to show up and watch. As in join your local party (whatever flavor). Best would be to run for office and see it from the other side. I know that a huge under appreciated aspect is learning that successful candidates are not like normal people. Going to all the same events, even carpooling with your opponents, you see what it takes to win. Politicians are super human. And have to love it. Doubly so for electeds. -- As for the Mars Hill guy... That's a story as old as religion. We now know that some percentage of people are predisposed to authoritarianism. Let's say 15%. If it wasn't Mark Driscoll (?), they'd follow some other charismatic leader. Well, 15% is a lot. If you have 100, or even 1,000, devoted followers, you have the start of a movement. I've I read up on Mars Hill (and others). Their origins stories are all kinda the same. They sell a great story. Everyone believes their part of something bigger than themselves. I still don't know what to make of all this.
app4soft 9y ago
> I wouldn't call Linux toxic Linus toxic != Linux toxic
lulmerchant 9y ago
The best managers I’ve ever had were blunt and somewhat disagreeable. The person I currently report to is like that, and I absolutely love it. Both of our time is valuable, and I never have to muck around with him. He tells me what he wants and what he thinks of my work. If I’m getting of track with something, then he corrects my course without wasting any time. It’s not a management style that’s suitable for everybody, because most people just wouldn’t be able to deal with it. But in the upper levels of management I think it’s benefecial, if not necessary.
microtherion 9y ago
There are also plenty of counterexamples: * Chris Lattner was already mentioned in this thread. * Larry Wall (perl, patch, rn) was unfailingly kind. * Yukihiro Matsumoto a.k.a. Matz (ruby) is so proverbially nice that people coined MINASWAN (Matz is nice and so we are nice). And even at pretty high level of Linux, there are people like Alan Cox who do not, to my knowledge, manage by temper tantrum.

ken 9y ago

I'm willing to admit the possibility, but I'd like to point out that half your examples are commercial products. There's a big difference in my mind between "get paid to work for someone on a product" and "volunteer your time for someone on a free project". In particular, most business people I've worked for have been, well, let's say 'ruthless', even with their own employees. If I'm going to work at a company, I don't feel I have a lot of choice here. Most open-source maintainers are nice and reasonable (perhaps out of necessity), so if I'm donating open-source patches, I do have a choice there.

city41 9y ago

Is it their temperaments that lead them to success, or is it their willingness to never cave and always do what they feel is right? I'm not a fan of confrontation, and in the past have allowed features to get added to my projects that I didn't think was right. I regret it. Had I been willing to have some uncomfortable conversations, the project would have been better.

Nokinside 9y ago
It is said that every successful enterprise requires three men – a dreamer, a businessman, and a son-of-a-bitch. If you are starting on your own, you have to be all three.
iforgotpassword 9y ago
I think it is. I remember when in 2009, all over Germany (and Europe) students went on strike because they had several issues with how universities changed in the past years. Students occupied large parts of the campus and started to work out their demands. They decided to try and go by a grassroots democracy. Everything was discussed and reconciled with polls in the biggest lecture hall. The whole thing made big news, was on all TV channels, the nation waited for the students' demands, and they kept arguing, and discussing, and the nation kept waiting, and then they argued about the order of phrases, single words, as long as a single person had a complaint, and finally after half of the students involved gave up and no TV channel reported on the topic anymore, some final document was handed over that nobody remembers, just as nobody remembers the response to it. This is a pretty stark counter example, but to me it was a huge revelation to actually be part of this experience and see it fall into pieces. It shows that you simply can't always be nice to everyone and make it right for every single individual. Sometimes you have to be that asshole that leads the way and steps onto other people's feet, because a suboptimal decision made in time is often better than discussing every detail to death. A rough tone is simply (and unfortunately) an effective way to assert your position. Call it alpha male 2.0 or whatever. This realization also helped me dealing with that kind of person, not taking it too personal. As for Linus, I feel like these kind of rants are really an exception, he's either in normal/neutral mode, or goes all apeshit, which I think makes it rather easy to deal with him (never did so far though). In comparison, the passive arrogance that a certain developer of some init system sometimes shows seems much more annoying to deal with (also never had an interaction though).

specialist 9y ago

I was asked to run for office. So I became a politician. I always play to win. So I adopted the mannerisms, attire, speech patterns of other successful politicians. I've seen many others attempt this transformation. Some are naturals. Some learn fast. Most fail (like me). My point: The audience demands politicians play the role of politician. Over time, the person becomes the role (because how we talk changes how we think). I don't think the person Linus could be successful playing the role of Linus Master of the Kernel without adopting that persona. So if he wasn't that way beforehand, he adapted. I'm not excusing bad behavior.

styfle 9y ago
You have piqued my interested. Is the problem at a social level? We want leaders who are assertive and strong willed? I think most organizations suffer from this problem, not just governments. For example, there are megachurches[0] that have gained huge followings only to collapse due to leaders with this personality and the will to hold onto power. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Hill_Church#Church_reorganization_in_2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Hill_Church#Church_reorga...
- specialist 9y ago
  I don't know. I wish I did. -- Though I suspected, I didn't fully realize how much "playing the part" mattered until I participated in the endorsement process before, during and after my own candidacy. I used to care about a candidate's policies, platform, positions. Now I only care about a candidate's ability to get elected. Before, I didn't understand the "realpolitick" viewpoint, and actively criticized it. Imagine my chagrin after I flipped my worldview. To get a glimpse of what I'm talking about, watch a bunch of endorsement interviews. Many jurisdictions post a video voter's guide. Some orgs and publications will post their interviews. Better is to show up and watch. As in join your local party (whatever flavor). Best would be to run for office and see it from the other side. I know that a huge under appreciated aspect is learning that successful candidates are not like normal people. Going to all the same events, even carpooling with your opponents, you see what it takes to win. Politicians are super human. And have to love it. Doubly so for electeds. -- As for the Mars Hill guy... That's a story as old as religion. We now know that some percentage of people are predisposed to authoritarianism. Let's say 15%. If it wasn't Mark Driscoll (?), they'd follow some other charismatic leader. Well, 15% is a lot. If you have 100, or even 1,000, devoted followers, you have the start of a movement. I've I read up on Mars Hill (and others). Their origins stories are all kinda the same. They sell a great story. Everyone believes their part of something bigger than themselves. I still don't know what to make of all this.

app4soft 9y ago

> I wouldn't call Linux toxic Linus toxic != Linux toxic

lulmerchant 9y ago

The best managers I’ve ever had were blunt and somewhat disagreeable. The person I currently report to is like that, and I absolutely love it. Both of our time is valuable, and I never have to muck around with him. He tells me what he wants and what he thinks of my work. If I’m getting of track with something, then he corrects my course without wasting any time. It’s not a management style that’s suitable for everybody, because most people just wouldn’t be able to deal with it. But in the upper levels of management I think it’s benefecial, if not necessary.

microtherion 9y ago

There are also plenty of counterexamples: * Chris Lattner was already mentioned in this thread. * Larry Wall (perl, patch, rn) was unfailingly kind. * Yukihiro Matsumoto a.k.a. Matz (ruby) is so proverbially nice that people coined MINASWAN (Matz is nice and so we are nice). And even at pretty high level of Linux, there are people like Alan Cox who do not, to my knowledge, manage by temper tantrum.