7 ms·

Linus seems to inspire a lot of poor and motivated reasoning - since Linux is successful, it must be because of his toxic personality. If a toxic personality is

by yedava 9y ago

Linus seems to inspire a lot of poor and motivated reasoning - since Linux is successful, it must be because of his toxic personality. If a toxic personality is a requirement (or a major contributing factor) for a successful engineering product, in a world of exquisitely crafted engineering products we should expect to see toxic personalities everywhere. That we don't should have prevented a cult of personality from developing in a community that prizes logical reasoning. Maybe the lesson here is that no group of humans is immune to some set of biases.

taeric 9y ago
I'd take it another way. The fact that he has some toxic qualities is likely orthogonal. Or, an indicator correlated with another quality. This one is kind of fun. Probably Linus' greatest quality is his fearlessness. He did something publicly for the world, that the majority of experts were saying was a bad idea. Specifically, he made a monolithic kernel. To that end. Yes, he can rant a bit. The question is if his rants reduce the conversations? It is as possible he shuts down thread that would have been more harmful. Indeed, most people he rants against are pushing from positions of power. And he rarely goes personal. (Ever?)
nindalf 9y ago
In general, most intelligent people are aware of the dangers of sampling bias and try to avoid it. But what do you do when your sample size is really small? We extrapolate from what we have seen work, but only a handful of open source projects have had the longevity and success that Linux has had. We see the same thing with decisions on what kind of movies to make. A handful of high budget movies are made every year, and when its time to decide which movies to fund studios extrapolate from past successes and failures. This includes wrong ideas like "no movies centred around female superheroes because Catwoman, Elektra etc" or "international audiences only connect with white leads, not with black ones". It goes the other way too, Black Panther's success suddenly means that international audiences love black actors. Me personally, I don't think either of the conclusions wrt black actors is correct - there's insufficient data to support either hypothesis. But people make do with the data they have, which is the same thing with Linux. "Linux is wildly successful - what do they do differently? Hmm, must be Linus' management style"
Nokinside 9y ago
I wouldn't call Linux toxic but I see your point. Have you considered the possibility that your premise is actually correct? Just few examples from the top of my head: * Bill Gates was aggressive office bully and has admitted this himself. * Steve Jobs was known to be nasty and unreasonable. * RMS is notoriously difficult person. * Theo de Raadt is really something (OpenBSD, OpenSSH, NetBSD) * Ulrich Drepper (glibc, ...) Above examples are outspoken SOB's. There is another case of engineering leaders who use passive aggression and 'niceness' to rule in a way that can become very unwelcoming. People have to lead with the personality they have. Management can be leaned and management style can be changed. Leadership skills are tied to personality.
- ken 9y ago
  I'm willing to admit the possibility, but I'd like to point out that half your examples are commercial products. There's a big difference in my mind between "get paid to work for someone on a product" and "volunteer your time for someone on a free project". In particular, most business people I've worked for have been, well, let's say 'ruthless', even with their own employees. If I'm going to work at a company, I don't feel I have a lot of choice here. Most open-source maintainers are nice and reasonable (perhaps out of necessity), so if I'm donating open-source patches, I do have a choice there.
- city41 9y ago
  Is it their temperaments that lead them to success, or is it their willingness to never cave and always do what they feel is right? I'm not a fan of confrontation, and in the past have allowed features to get added to my projects that I didn't think was right. I regret it. Had I been willing to have some uncomfortable conversations, the project would have been better.
  - Nokinside 9y ago
    It is said that every successful enterprise requires three men – a dreamer, a businessman, and a son-of-a-bitch. If you are starting on your own, you have to be all three.
  - 9y ago
x1113232 9y ago
He does not have a "toxic personality". Have you ever watched a talk of his? Other people are the opposite: Exquisite manners in writing, self-absorbed assholes in person.
zombieprocesses 9y ago
> since Linux is successful, it must be because of his toxic personality. Who says this? Just because he is harsh, abrupt and straightforward doesn't necessarily mean he is toxic. And even if he was, nobody is forcing anyone to work with "toxic" linus. If you think Linus is toxic then don't use his kernel, don't use his software and don't read his rants. Everything is toxic nowadays. Everyone cries about everything being toxic. If you don't praise every mediocrity or give a trophy to everyone who didn't win, you are toxic. If only we had more "toxic" people like linus instead of people who whine about toxicity imagine what the world would be like.
zzzcpan 9y ago
There is nothing toxic about rants. It's the other way around, toxicity comes from not speaking out.
EpicEng 9y ago
He doesn't have a 'toxic' personality, and let's not over use the word 'toxic'. It seems to me that you're basing this opinion on A) a few mailing list entries you've read (specifically _because_ there was some drama) and B) the fact that any comment which is even mildly rude is now considered 'toxic' by some.

by yedava 9y ago

taeric 9y ago

I'd take it another way. The fact that he has some toxic qualities is likely orthogonal. Or, an indicator correlated with another quality. This one is kind of fun. Probably Linus' greatest quality is his fearlessness. He did something publicly for the world, that the majority of experts were saying was a bad idea. Specifically, he made a monolithic kernel. To that end. Yes, he can rant a bit. The question is if his rants reduce the conversations? It is as possible he shuts down thread that would have been more harmful. Indeed, most people he rants against are pushing from positions of power. And he rarely goes personal. (Ever?)

nindalf 9y ago

In general, most intelligent people are aware of the dangers of sampling bias and try to avoid it. But what do you do when your sample size is really small? We extrapolate from what we have seen work, but only a handful of open source projects have had the longevity and success that Linux has had. We see the same thing with decisions on what kind of movies to make. A handful of high budget movies are made every year, and when its time to decide which movies to fund studios extrapolate from past successes and failures. This includes wrong ideas like "no movies centred around female superheroes because Catwoman, Elektra etc" or "international audiences only connect with white leads, not with black ones". It goes the other way too, Black Panther's success suddenly means that international audiences love black actors. Me personally, I don't think either of the conclusions wrt black actors is correct - there's insufficient data to support either hypothesis. But people make do with the data they have, which is the same thing with Linux. "Linux is wildly successful - what do they do differently? Hmm, must be Linus' management style"

Nokinside 9y ago

I wouldn't call Linux toxic but I see your point. Have you considered the possibility that your premise is actually correct? Just few examples from the top of my head: * Bill Gates was aggressive office bully and has admitted this himself. * Steve Jobs was known to be nasty and unreasonable. * RMS is notoriously difficult person. * Theo de Raadt is really something (OpenBSD, OpenSSH, NetBSD) * Ulrich Drepper (glibc, ...) Above examples are outspoken SOB's. There is another case of engineering leaders who use passive aggression and 'niceness' to rule in a way that can become very unwelcoming. People have to lead with the personality they have. Management can be leaned and management style can be changed. Leadership skills are tied to personality.

ken 9y ago
I'm willing to admit the possibility, but I'd like to point out that half your examples are commercial products. There's a big difference in my mind between "get paid to work for someone on a product" and "volunteer your time for someone on a free project". In particular, most business people I've worked for have been, well, let's say 'ruthless', even with their own employees. If I'm going to work at a company, I don't feel I have a lot of choice here. Most open-source maintainers are nice and reasonable (perhaps out of necessity), so if I'm donating open-source patches, I do have a choice there.
city41 9y ago
Is it their temperaments that lead them to success, or is it their willingness to never cave and always do what they feel is right? I'm not a fan of confrontation, and in the past have allowed features to get added to my projects that I didn't think was right. I regret it. Had I been willing to have some uncomfortable conversations, the project would have been better.
- Nokinside 9y ago
  It is said that every successful enterprise requires three men – a dreamer, a businessman, and a son-of-a-bitch. If you are starting on your own, you have to be all three.
- 9y ago

x1113232 9y ago

He does not have a "toxic personality". Have you ever watched a talk of his? Other people are the opposite: Exquisite manners in writing, self-absorbed assholes in person.

zombieprocesses 9y ago

> since Linux is successful, it must be because of his toxic personality. Who says this? Just because he is harsh, abrupt and straightforward doesn't necessarily mean he is toxic. And even if he was, nobody is forcing anyone to work with "toxic" linus. If you think Linus is toxic then don't use his kernel, don't use his software and don't read his rants. Everything is toxic nowadays. Everyone cries about everything being toxic. If you don't praise every mediocrity or give a trophy to everyone who didn't win, you are toxic. If only we had more "toxic" people like linus instead of people who whine about toxicity imagine what the world would be like.

zzzcpan 9y ago

There is nothing toxic about rants. It's the other way around, toxicity comes from not speaking out.

EpicEng 9y ago

He doesn't have a 'toxic' personality, and let's not over use the word 'toxic'. It seems to me that you're basing this opinion on A) a few mailing list entries you've read (specifically _because_ there was some drama) and B) the fact that any comment which is even mildly rude is now considered 'toxic' by some.