7 ms·

How the Irish Teach Us to Die

96 points by skadamou 9y ago

arikr 9y ago
On this topic, highly recommended if you or someone you care about is close to death: "Final Journeys" by Maggie Callanan Also, The Grief Recovery Handbook, by John W James and Russell Friedman
- paulirish 9y ago
  Normally wouldn't do this, but the topic + name match is too much coincidence to ignore. Allow me to mention my mother's first major book, shipping next month: "Grieving - The Sacred Art", by Lisa Irish
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    And... a link to learn more: https://www.amazon.com/Grieving-Sacred-Art-Spiritual-Living/dp/1594736340 https://www.amazon.com/Grieving-Sacred-Art-Spiritual-Living/...
derriz 9y ago
Most Irish never experience a wake. I know which island is being discussed in the piece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achill_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achill_Island). My grandparents lived there and I attended their wakes and those of other elderly relatives in the area. But even there, wakes are becoming less and common. And wakes are generally unknown in Ireland outside of relatively isolated rural areas. I suspect in a couple of decades the custom will be gone completely.
- dmurray 9y ago
  > Most Irish never experience a wake I wouldn't go that far. Both of my grandfathers died in the last 3 years, one in suburban Dublin, one in a large country town. Both had wakes with the body laid out and dozens or hundreds of people coming to pay their respects. I agree it's no longer the universal custom it once was, and it's dying out - or perhaps ebbing, to come back into fashion in another generation.
  - derriz 9y ago
    Interesting. I've never been to a wake in a town or city - any funerals I have experienced have used an undertaker's parlour. I guess I was generalizing from personal experience but I reckon the author of the piece did a lot more generalising.
  - newirish 9y ago
    Irish American on my mother’s side here. I didn’t realize wakes weren’t a thing that people did until I was an adult. There would always be an open casket, paying of respects, and a party. I find the article to be as much about the preparation for death by the dying as it is about the remembrance of those left behind. The willingness to accept it as a normal thing, a celebration of life.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  My grandmother emigrated from Northern Ireland while pregnant with my mother. When she passed she requested that we have a brief wake rather than a funeral. Her brothers came in from Belfast and Kitchener (Ontario), my mom and her sister and immediate families gathered. She was burned and then we shared a meal, drinks, and shared photographs and stories. I wouldn't say it's that far gone. If there's one thing that Irish (and for that matter, Scottish) are good at it's sowing the seed, so to speak.
- aidano101 9y ago
  Totally disagree..wakes are very common still, at least in Catholic communities.
  - protomyth 9y ago
    and with the plains tribes (cannot speak for the rest) The Dakota have a wake that starts with a car procession driving from a meeting point lead by the hearse which drives to the place of the wake[1]. It is generally a community center due to the number of people. The wake starts and goes until the next morning when a mass is held at the church. After the mass, weather permitting, the person is laid to rest in the cemetery or whatever other arrangement was made. One of the facts of life in the north land is the body might have to be stored until winter is over and they can actually dig. A year later the family and close friends have a dinner to mark the end of mourning. 1) just a matter of etiquette, when a hearse with its lights on is followed by a lot of people with their lights on and sometimes preceded by a cop (if available) approaches in the opposite direction, pull your car over to the side of the road and stop until they go by. Its polite and expected in a lot of rural communities.
- lucideer 9y ago
  I live in Dublin and have been to numerous wakes here, both for elderly relatives, and, unfortunately, young friends. I'm sure there are funerals without wakes, but they seem to be a component more commonly than not.
- garrettheaver 9y ago
  "And wakes are generally unknown in Ireland outside of relatively isolated rural areas." From where do you get that mad notion? That's not correct at all. Living in Dublin with friends from virtually every county and every single one of them would have been to wakes and not just for people of an elder generation. I'd go so far as to say it's standard practice across the country with a few isolated places where they don't.
  - derriz 9y ago
    "Where do I get that mad notion?" From personal experience, that's all. Your personal experieces don't refute it - they just demonstrate that people's experiences can differ. I'm old enough to have been to many funerals all over Ireland and I've never experienced a wake as described in the piece outside of Achill. To be clear, the wake he describes involves having the body laid out in the sitting room for at least 24 hours. Having friends, neighbours, relatives and randomers traipsing in and out of the house at any time of day or night and regardless of the time, food and drink (and in the past cigarettes and tabacco) had to be offerred. Some people would assume the duty staying up all night to ensure the body was never left alone? All funerals I've been too in towns and cities have held a viewing for the deceased in a funeral home. Actually I googled it, to check if my experiences were wildly out of whack and it seem not - the top hit was https://rip.ie/article.php?AID=32 https://rip.ie/article.php?AID=32 - and it concurs with my claim that wakes are becoming less and less common and that they are rarely seen in towns and cities these days. So it seems my notion isn't so mad after all!
- topranks 9y ago
  It's the standard thing in my family - generations deep in Dublin. What differs is the body is normally in another room. Like everyone sessions in one room and people go in and out to pay their last respects from time to time. I think it's good, for closure and stuff. I do think your man in the article is getting way to misty eyed and being over the top though. Probably different families do it to different extents.
- BjorksEgo 9y ago
  I'm not sure which Ireland you're living on but its not the same one as I am. My part of the country wakes are still the norm for > 80% of deaths. I've been to dozens and I'm not even half way through my twentys.
Omnus 9y ago
I don't know...most of the things described in the article are commonplace in Western society, aside from the family members preparing the corpse. He could have been describing any of a number funerals and deaths I've witnessed in the United States.
- riffraff 9y ago
  I agree, at least in Italy, for people who die at home, the customs are basically the same.
- eksemplar 9y ago
  I feel sorry for the authors loss, but I have to admit that I left the article without having learned anything from the Irish.
stuartd 9y ago
Repost of https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/09/why-the-irish-get-death-right https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/09/why-the...
leesalminen 9y ago
A bit off topic, but my neighbor is currently dying from an aggressive cancer. She moved to the US from Ireland ~25 years ago. She’s convinced there’s something in the US that causes increased cancer rates vs. Ireland. No family history of cancer and apparently is less common there than here. I thought it was interesting and have no data to back it up. Just thought I’d share a dying Irshwoman’s perspective.
- windlep 9y ago
  The stats here seem to indicate Ireland is immediately behind the US in cancer rates: https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-frequency-country https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-fr...
- esprehn 9y ago
  There's data available about that if you're curious: https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-frequency-country https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-fr... It doesn't seem Ireland and the US are much different.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Death rates from cancer also seem to be similar, incidentally. There are countries where cancer kills a notably smaller number of people than in the US, but Ireland isn’t one of them: http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/worldwide-cancer/mortality#heading-Zero http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-s...
- TylerE 9y ago
  I suspect it has more to do with modern medicine extending life spans so people are living long enough to die of cancer rather than other things like heart conditions.
- dmoo 9y ago
  My guess is that it is a function of her age. As you get older you know more people who get sick and die so it seems common.
protomyth 9y ago
"In America Death is a whisper." - well, the part of America that the author of the article is from. This is not even close to true for other groups of Americans. America is a vast place with many, many different cultural influences.
- stjohnswarts 9y ago
  Wait... everyone in America isn't a WASP from Iowa?
everyone 9y ago
I'm Irish.. This is such bullshit.. "you probably think a wake is just another Irish piss up, a few beers around the corpse and an open coffin." Thats exactly what is is in my experience. "But amongst the Celts this ancient form of death-sharing lives on." Celts wtf? We Irish are slightly more inbred that on the continent but the entire European population has been thoroughly blended for 100's of years. No-one is a Celt. No-one here would ever mention ancient demographic groups in reference to modern day events. Stopped reading after that.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  “Celts” normally refers to people from regions with a historically Celtic language and cultural influence, these days; it’s not meaningfully an ethnic group today.
  - Jdam 9y ago
    OK, I will start calling Italians Romans from now on.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      The Romans were Trojans, according to Virgil. They defeated the Italians in battle, and abducted women to marry.
    - garmaine 9y ago
      I’m pretty sure the people of Rome call themselves romans.
- anonoholic 9y ago
  > Stopped reading after that. Uh, and you were doing so well. That meme should crawl in to a corner and die. I stopped reading after that. (It was the last thing you wrote :) )
  - everyone 9y ago
    I have no idea what you are referencing.

96 points by skadamou 9y ago

On this topic, highly recommended if you or someone you care about is close to death: "Final Journeys" by Maggie Callanan Also, The Grief Recovery Handbook, by John W James and Russell Friedman

paulirish 9y ago
Normally wouldn't do this, but the topic + name match is too much coincidence to ignore. Allow me to mention my mother's first major book, shipping next month: "Grieving - The Sacred Art", by Lisa Irish
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  And... a link to learn more: https://www.amazon.com/Grieving-Sacred-Art-Spiritual-Living/dp/1594736340 https://www.amazon.com/Grieving-Sacred-Art-Spiritual-Living/...

derriz 9y ago

Most Irish never experience a wake. I know which island is being discussed in the piece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achill_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achill_Island). My grandparents lived there and I attended their wakes and those of other elderly relatives in the area. But even there, wakes are becoming less and common. And wakes are generally unknown in Ireland outside of relatively isolated rural areas. I suspect in a couple of decades the custom will be gone completely.

dmurray 9y ago
> Most Irish never experience a wake I wouldn't go that far. Both of my grandfathers died in the last 3 years, one in suburban Dublin, one in a large country town. Both had wakes with the body laid out and dozens or hundreds of people coming to pay their respects. I agree it's no longer the universal custom it once was, and it's dying out - or perhaps ebbing, to come back into fashion in another generation.
- derriz 9y ago
  Interesting. I've never been to a wake in a town or city - any funerals I have experienced have used an undertaker's parlour. I guess I was generalizing from personal experience but I reckon the author of the piece did a lot more generalising.
- newirish 9y ago
  Irish American on my mother’s side here. I didn’t realize wakes weren’t a thing that people did until I was an adult. There would always be an open casket, paying of respects, and a party. I find the article to be as much about the preparation for death by the dying as it is about the remembrance of those left behind. The willingness to accept it as a normal thing, a celebration of life.
52-6F-62 9y ago
My grandmother emigrated from Northern Ireland while pregnant with my mother. When she passed she requested that we have a brief wake rather than a funeral. Her brothers came in from Belfast and Kitchener (Ontario), my mom and her sister and immediate families gathered. She was burned and then we shared a meal, drinks, and shared photographs and stories. I wouldn't say it's that far gone. If there's one thing that Irish (and for that matter, Scottish) are good at it's sowing the seed, so to speak.
aidano101 9y ago
Totally disagree..wakes are very common still, at least in Catholic communities.
- protomyth 9y ago
  and with the plains tribes (cannot speak for the rest) The Dakota have a wake that starts with a car procession driving from a meeting point lead by the hearse which drives to the place of the wake[1]. It is generally a community center due to the number of people. The wake starts and goes until the next morning when a mass is held at the church. After the mass, weather permitting, the person is laid to rest in the cemetery or whatever other arrangement was made. One of the facts of life in the north land is the body might have to be stored until winter is over and they can actually dig. A year later the family and close friends have a dinner to mark the end of mourning. 1) just a matter of etiquette, when a hearse with its lights on is followed by a lot of people with their lights on and sometimes preceded by a cop (if available) approaches in the opposite direction, pull your car over to the side of the road and stop until they go by. Its polite and expected in a lot of rural communities.
lucideer 9y ago
I live in Dublin and have been to numerous wakes here, both for elderly relatives, and, unfortunately, young friends. I'm sure there are funerals without wakes, but they seem to be a component more commonly than not.
garrettheaver 9y ago
"And wakes are generally unknown in Ireland outside of relatively isolated rural areas." From where do you get that mad notion? That's not correct at all. Living in Dublin with friends from virtually every county and every single one of them would have been to wakes and not just for people of an elder generation. I'd go so far as to say it's standard practice across the country with a few isolated places where they don't.
- derriz 9y ago
  "Where do I get that mad notion?" From personal experience, that's all. Your personal experieces don't refute it - they just demonstrate that people's experiences can differ. I'm old enough to have been to many funerals all over Ireland and I've never experienced a wake as described in the piece outside of Achill. To be clear, the wake he describes involves having the body laid out in the sitting room for at least 24 hours. Having friends, neighbours, relatives and randomers traipsing in and out of the house at any time of day or night and regardless of the time, food and drink (and in the past cigarettes and tabacco) had to be offerred. Some people would assume the duty staying up all night to ensure the body was never left alone? All funerals I've been too in towns and cities have held a viewing for the deceased in a funeral home. Actually I googled it, to check if my experiences were wildly out of whack and it seem not - the top hit was https://rip.ie/article.php?AID=32 https://rip.ie/article.php?AID=32 - and it concurs with my claim that wakes are becoming less and less common and that they are rarely seen in towns and cities these days. So it seems my notion isn't so mad after all!
topranks 9y ago
It's the standard thing in my family - generations deep in Dublin. What differs is the body is normally in another room. Like everyone sessions in one room and people go in and out to pay their last respects from time to time. I think it's good, for closure and stuff. I do think your man in the article is getting way to misty eyed and being over the top though. Probably different families do it to different extents.
BjorksEgo 9y ago
I'm not sure which Ireland you're living on but its not the same one as I am. My part of the country wakes are still the norm for > 80% of deaths. I've been to dozens and I'm not even half way through my twentys.

Omnus 9y ago

I don't know...most of the things described in the article are commonplace in Western society, aside from the family members preparing the corpse. He could have been describing any of a number funerals and deaths I've witnessed in the United States.

riffraff 9y ago
I agree, at least in Italy, for people who die at home, the customs are basically the same.
eksemplar 9y ago
I feel sorry for the authors loss, but I have to admit that I left the article without having learned anything from the Irish.

stuartd 9y ago

Repost of https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/09/why-the-irish-get-death-right https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/09/why-the...

leesalminen 9y ago

A bit off topic, but my neighbor is currently dying from an aggressive cancer. She moved to the US from Ireland ~25 years ago. She’s convinced there’s something in the US that causes increased cancer rates vs. Ireland. No family history of cancer and apparently is less common there than here. I thought it was interesting and have no data to back it up. Just thought I’d share a dying Irshwoman’s perspective.

windlep 9y ago
The stats here seem to indicate Ireland is immediately behind the US in cancer rates: https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-frequency-country https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-fr...
esprehn 9y ago
There's data available about that if you're curious: https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-frequency-country https://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-fr... It doesn't seem Ireland and the US are much different.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Death rates from cancer also seem to be similar, incidentally. There are countries where cancer kills a notably smaller number of people than in the US, but Ireland isn’t one of them: http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/worldwide-cancer/mortality#heading-Zero http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-s...
TylerE 9y ago
I suspect it has more to do with modern medicine extending life spans so people are living long enough to die of cancer rather than other things like heart conditions.
dmoo 9y ago
My guess is that it is a function of her age. As you get older you know more people who get sick and die so it seems common.

protomyth 9y ago

"In America Death is a whisper." - well, the part of America that the author of the article is from. This is not even close to true for other groups of Americans. America is a vast place with many, many different cultural influences.

stjohnswarts 9y ago
Wait... everyone in America isn't a WASP from Iowa?

everyone 9y ago

I'm Irish.. This is such bullshit.. "you probably think a wake is just another Irish piss up, a few beers around the corpse and an open coffin." Thats exactly what is is in my experience. "But amongst the Celts this ancient form of death-sharing lives on." Celts wtf? We Irish are slightly more inbred that on the continent but the entire European population has been thoroughly blended for 100's of years. No-one is a Celt. No-one here would ever mention ancient demographic groups in reference to modern day events. Stopped reading after that.

rsynnott 9y ago
“Celts” normally refers to people from regions with a historically Celtic language and cultural influence, these days; it’s not meaningfully an ethnic group today.
- Jdam 9y ago
  OK, I will start calling Italians Romans from now on.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    The Romans were Trojans, according to Virgil. They defeated the Italians in battle, and abducted women to marry.
  - garmaine 9y ago
    I’m pretty sure the people of Rome call themselves romans.
anonoholic 9y ago
> Stopped reading after that. Uh, and you were doing so well. That meme should crawl in to a corner and die. I stopped reading after that. (It was the last thing you wrote :) )
- everyone 9y ago
  I have no idea what you are referencing.