5 ms·

A recent counterexample in my life: I recently was diagnosed with sleep apnea. It's a mechanical problem where my respiratory tract relaxes in such a way as t

by lsc 9y ago

A recent counterexample in my life: I recently was diagnosed with sleep apnea. It's a mechanical problem where my respiratory tract relaxes in such a way as to close off airflow while I'm sleeping. It's actually a big problem because either it wakes you up or the oxygen levels on your blood drop (or one and then the other.) and those things, aside from making you feel groggy the next day, cause all sorts of long term health issues. Weight gain, too... which is sad because being overweight is a huge contributing factor to apnea. (In fact, I've been working out a lot more since I started treatment. I just feel physically better and more physically able to push myself to work out.) The treatment my doctor recommended? Rig a glorified air compressor to blow air down my throat. It's really a beautifully simple and effective solution to what's fundamentally a mechanical problem with my body. I mean, I wanted something quiet and auto-adjusting with a lot of data logging, so I went out and got one of the more expensive glorified air compressors made by ResMed (which really is near silent- I'm not saying that the top-end ResMed machines are a good value for the dollar compared to the cheaper machines, but they really are quite nice, and totally worth it if your marginal dollars are cheap.) but the mechanism is super simple and I'm pretty sure I could rig one up (minus the auto-adjust) for like $30 of parts; it's just an air compressor lubricated with something that doesn't stink with a regulator. As far as I can tell, if you want a CPAP machine and are paying full freight, you can pay anywhere from $300 to $3000, which seems pretty cheap for the difference it makes. But, my point is that your doctor will totally prescribe simple mechanical solutions when they work.

DrAwdeOccarim 9y ago
Join the club! If you're interested in the data aspect of this, I highly recommend the software package sleepyhead. It let's you see all the data from the machine in a great format. If you're able to convince your insurance to cover, I would also recommend getting a mandibular advancement device. I find that switching between the two every few weeks helps my AHI scores. Probably because each works in a different way and muscle memory seems to come into effect for each differently. The MAD works for me because I have epiglotis-derived SA, so you're milage may differ. I would also highly recommend getting an ENT consult. Knowing why I have SA was great because it helps me position my pillows to get the best results. This is also a really cool recent advancement but I'm not sold on it yet: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/01/fda-approves-first-of-a-kind-sleep-apnea-implant/8563821/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/01/fda-ap... If you want even more data, I use this: https://www.amazon.com/Contec-Wrist-worn-Oximeter-Software-Download/dp/B00LN4LCMC https://www.amazon.com/Contec-Wrist-worn-Oximeter-Software-D... You can overlay the pulse-ox data in sleepyhead with your CPAP data to get a fuller picture. I've also been looking into making my own EEG hairnet and computer logger but it's not trivial. Good luck!
- lsc 9y ago
  I was looking at that oximeter you mention, but according to reviews, they updated the firmware, which made it much more difficult to get the data out of the thing. I actually spent a fair amount of time looking for a pulse oximeter I could get data out of when I was getting diagnosed; I never found anything that looked like it would work without significant reverse engineering. I haven't even setup sleepyhead, so I haven't really been looking at the data. I should do that. Shocking my throat sounds... like a hilarious way to improve sleep? I have a few friends who got various kinds of surgery; they all speak really highly of it, but my doctor said that it's super common for the problem to reoccur after a few years. seems like maybe electrically stimulating my throat might be more resistant to "growing back".
dctoedt 9y ago
> ... the mechanism is super simple and I'm pretty sure I could rig one up (minus the auto-adjust) for like $30 of parts; it's just an air compressor lubricated with something that doesn't stink with a regulator. As far as I can tell, if you want a CPAP machine and are paying full freight, you can pay anywhere from $300 to $3000, which seems pretty cheap for the difference it makes. Part of the price is no doubt to cover the cost of liability insurance for the manufacturer, the distributor, etc., in case a user claims that the machine malfunctioned and damaged the user's sinuses, throat, or whatever. (My dad used a CPAP machine.)
- lsc 9y ago
  But... I don't think that detracts from my main point, which was to give an example of a technology that was "simply too cheap to be developed" that was, in fact developed. Sure, for various reasons it ended up not costing pennies, but my point is just that the underlying concept is extremely simple and if you ignore all the things that makes good engineering expensive, and all the things that make medical devices expensive, potentially quite cheap.
MayeulC 9y ago
On a semi-serious note, you might want to start playing didgeridoo, and have a look at the recent Ig Nobels. There has been some ongoing (very serious) research on treating sleep apnea that way.
- lsc 9y ago
  You're talking to a man who has already failed to drop the extra weight (and there's a whole lot of data showing being skinnier helps a lot; not only with sleep apnea, but with a whole raft of other health and social issues.) I mean, in a real way, I'm here because I find exercising enough and not eating too much to be difficult, so exercising in a very specific way is probably not going to work as well for me as just using the equipment. My understanding is that most people have difficulty with CPAP machines mostly because they can't seem to get the thing to fit, (I solved that problem for me by simply buying new masks until I found one that worked well for me.) or because the dang thing is too loud (I solved that by buying a more expensive air compressor) or because they went somewhere else for the night and didn't bring it (I solved that by buying a super small unit I can keep in the bottom of my backpack) or because they're embarrassed to sleep with a life support looking mask on their face (I bought an 'Aliens' licensed 'face hugger' plushie from thinkgeek, with the intention of sewing it onto my portable mask to deal with this... but I haven't; turns out I am not afraid of looking like a dying old man if doing so makes me act a lot less like a dying old man when I'm awake. I still think I might attach the plushie at some point because I find the idea hilarious, though.) But the point is that mechanical solutions are much easier for me than for most people; I've been a technician all my life; making machines work is what I do, and I'm pretty good at it, and I have a reasonably decent income with no kids, so I don't have to worry about the cost of medical devices. On the other hand, as far as I can tell, I'm not any better than average at making myself work out (which is... pretty bad. There's a vanishingly small percentage of the population that was obese for any period of time who manages to return and stay within a normal bmi.) even after applying my ability to buy and operate equipment to the problem. Also, did you see the cracked.com article on the subject? good stuff.

by lsc 9y ago

DrAwdeOccarim 9y ago

Join the club! If you're interested in the data aspect of this, I highly recommend the software package sleepyhead. It let's you see all the data from the machine in a great format. If you're able to convince your insurance to cover, I would also recommend getting a mandibular advancement device. I find that switching between the two every few weeks helps my AHI scores. Probably because each works in a different way and muscle memory seems to come into effect for each differently. The MAD works for me because I have epiglotis-derived SA, so you're milage may differ. I would also highly recommend getting an ENT consult. Knowing why I have SA was great because it helps me position my pillows to get the best results. This is also a really cool recent advancement but I'm not sold on it yet: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/01/fda-approves-first-of-a-kind-sleep-apnea-implant/8563821/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/01/fda-ap... If you want even more data, I use this: https://www.amazon.com/Contec-Wrist-worn-Oximeter-Software-Download/dp/B00LN4LCMC https://www.amazon.com/Contec-Wrist-worn-Oximeter-Software-D... You can overlay the pulse-ox data in sleepyhead with your CPAP data to get a fuller picture. I've also been looking into making my own EEG hairnet and computer logger but it's not trivial. Good luck!

lsc 9y ago
I was looking at that oximeter you mention, but according to reviews, they updated the firmware, which made it much more difficult to get the data out of the thing. I actually spent a fair amount of time looking for a pulse oximeter I could get data out of when I was getting diagnosed; I never found anything that looked like it would work without significant reverse engineering. I haven't even setup sleepyhead, so I haven't really been looking at the data. I should do that. Shocking my throat sounds... like a hilarious way to improve sleep? I have a few friends who got various kinds of surgery; they all speak really highly of it, but my doctor said that it's super common for the problem to reoccur after a few years. seems like maybe electrically stimulating my throat might be more resistant to "growing back".

dctoedt 9y ago

> ... the mechanism is super simple and I'm pretty sure I could rig one up (minus the auto-adjust) for like $30 of parts; it's just an air compressor lubricated with something that doesn't stink with a regulator. As far as I can tell, if you want a CPAP machine and are paying full freight, you can pay anywhere from $300 to $3000, which seems pretty cheap for the difference it makes. Part of the price is no doubt to cover the cost of liability insurance for the manufacturer, the distributor, etc., in case a user claims that the machine malfunctioned and damaged the user's sinuses, throat, or whatever. (My dad used a CPAP machine.)

lsc 9y ago
But... I don't think that detracts from my main point, which was to give an example of a technology that was "simply too cheap to be developed" that was, in fact developed. Sure, for various reasons it ended up not costing pennies, but my point is just that the underlying concept is extremely simple and if you ignore all the things that makes good engineering expensive, and all the things that make medical devices expensive, potentially quite cheap.

MayeulC 9y ago

On a semi-serious note, you might want to start playing didgeridoo, and have a look at the recent Ig Nobels. There has been some ongoing (very serious) research on treating sleep apnea that way.

lsc 9y ago
You're talking to a man who has already failed to drop the extra weight (and there's a whole lot of data showing being skinnier helps a lot; not only with sleep apnea, but with a whole raft of other health and social issues.) I mean, in a real way, I'm here because I find exercising enough and not eating too much to be difficult, so exercising in a very specific way is probably not going to work as well for me as just using the equipment. My understanding is that most people have difficulty with CPAP machines mostly because they can't seem to get the thing to fit, (I solved that problem for me by simply buying new masks until I found one that worked well for me.) or because the dang thing is too loud (I solved that by buying a more expensive air compressor) or because they went somewhere else for the night and didn't bring it (I solved that by buying a super small unit I can keep in the bottom of my backpack) or because they're embarrassed to sleep with a life support looking mask on their face (I bought an 'Aliens' licensed 'face hugger' plushie from thinkgeek, with the intention of sewing it onto my portable mask to deal with this... but I haven't; turns out I am not afraid of looking like a dying old man if doing so makes me act a lot less like a dying old man when I'm awake. I still think I might attach the plushie at some point because I find the idea hilarious, though.) But the point is that mechanical solutions are much easier for me than for most people; I've been a technician all my life; making machines work is what I do, and I'm pretty good at it, and I have a reasonably decent income with no kids, so I don't have to worry about the cost of medical devices. On the other hand, as far as I can tell, I'm not any better than average at making myself work out (which is... pretty bad. There's a vanishingly small percentage of the population that was obese for any period of time who manages to return and stay within a normal bmi.) even after applying my ability to buy and operate equipment to the problem. Also, did you see the cracked.com article on the subject? good stuff.