4 ms·

The efforts of Edo-era doctors to figure out beriberi in Japan

112 points by dsr12 9y ago

mirimir 9y ago
Although it's an old story, this is a good writeup.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  I appreciate that it's quick, and to the point, but still interesting.
  - mfoy_ 9y ago
    I also like that it repeats the theme of "arriving at the correct solution for the wrong reasons" that underpins so, so much of human scientific endeavour. It makes me really curious how much of our current medical (or other) knowledge is in a similar way.
    - gwern 9y ago
      Scurvy? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1174912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1174912
M_Bakhtiari 9y ago
I get white rice as a status symbol, but I don't get white rice and white rice only. Why no meat, fish or legumes, even for the emperor?
- nicholas73 9y ago
  I know one Japanese guy who strongly prefers eating mostly rice. Surely it's not a status thing any more. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a non-cultural cause for this.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  When a mind that has no business thinking about some thing starts coming up with ideas for it, you get lots of half-baked little gems like this.
- sdrothrock 9y ago
  > I get white rice as a status symbol, but I don't get white rice and white rice only. White rice has traditionally been seen as the "main dish" of a meal. Many people, even younger people in their 20s, follow this line of thinking. Here are a few facts in no particular order: 1. Rice is placed on the left of a set meal (https://i.imgur.com/n29o2Dh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/n29o2Dh.jpg), with miso soup on the right. Traditionally, the left side is the "higher" position. 2. In a set meal, everything that's not rice is generally referred to as "okazu," or "side dish." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okazu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okazu) 3. A meal consisting of a bowl of rice with some kind of flavored salty flakes (furikake, https://i.imgur.com/hDAqndf.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hDAqndf.jpg) is considered a perfectly complete meal. 4. You ask "why no meat . . . even for the emperor" -- this is sort of a cultural blind spot for foreigners, I think. We think "oh man, meat, this is an honor!", but for a long time in Japan, meat was not only difficult to obtain, but was also seen as unclean in some ways (https://www.kikkoman.co.jp/kiifc/foodculture/pdf_09/e_002_008.pdf https://www.kikkoman.co.jp/kiifc/foodculture/pdf_09/e_002_00...). 4a. Butchers, for example, were of the untouchable (burakumin, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin) class for dealing with slaughter. This perception even exists today, to some extent, especially in wealthy families. Anecdotally, there is even a continuing modern perception of meat as "unhealthy" and "a sometime treat," even among younger people (say, in their 20s). People laugh at me for eating ~100-200g of chicken, pork, or beef per day and often point to that as the cause of my being overweight, seriously suggesting that I should instead eat 100-200 grams more of white rice per day.
pella 9y ago
HN 3y ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9387160#9389678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9387160#9389678
mfoy_ 9y ago
Culturally ingrained beliefs (especially when related to status symbols) can be really, really hard to unseat. Similarly, Doctors did not use to wash their hands before surgeries, as they were considered "Gentlemen", and thus "clean". It took a lot of evidence before most surgeons started routinely washing their hands before an operation. Sadly, the man who first noticed and promoted this practice died before the medical community finally accepted his ideas... Poor Ignaz! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis)
- webbles 9y ago
  What seems really interesting is that not only are culturally ingrained beliefs hard to unseat, but it seems that if they are ultimately unseated, if something resembles the old beliefs it will be immediately dismissed by the new ingrained beliefs. Being close minded is ultimately the root cause of the failures in both scenarios.
  - mfoy_ 9y ago
    Care to give some examples? I can think of a few general counterexamples: * Fad diets (people flit from fad to fad, not outright reject all fad diets from then on) * Losing your faith, but then being fascinated by a foreign religion (i.e. The trope of the ex-Christian falling in love with Buddhism)
    - dwringer 9y ago
      Regarding fad diets, I can think of times when I've seen people (myself included) act biased toward new fad diets if they resemble older, popularly discredited fad diets in some way (even if it is only a superficial similarity). I think the same can apply to religion; someone might be completely turned off of Abrahamic religions by their experiences with only one of them, regardless of whether this is a "fair" assessment.
      - mfoy_ 9y ago
        Regarding GP's comment, then... is that type of closed-mindedness actually bad? If they've finally changed their mind about a deeply seated belief, that means they must have had some pretty compelling reason to do so... why would they backtrack casually?

112 points by dsr12 9y ago

mirimir 9y ago

Although it's an old story, this is a good writeup.

nerdponx 9y ago
I appreciate that it's quick, and to the point, but still interesting.
- mfoy_ 9y ago
  I also like that it repeats the theme of "arriving at the correct solution for the wrong reasons" that underpins so, so much of human scientific endeavour. It makes me really curious how much of our current medical (or other) knowledge is in a similar way.
  - gwern 9y ago
    Scurvy? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1174912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1174912

M_Bakhtiari 9y ago

I get white rice as a status symbol, but I don't get white rice and white rice only. Why no meat, fish or legumes, even for the emperor?

nicholas73 9y ago
I know one Japanese guy who strongly prefers eating mostly rice. Surely it's not a status thing any more. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a non-cultural cause for this.
tomc1985 9y ago
When a mind that has no business thinking about some thing starts coming up with ideas for it, you get lots of half-baked little gems like this.
sdrothrock 9y ago
> I get white rice as a status symbol, but I don't get white rice and white rice only. White rice has traditionally been seen as the "main dish" of a meal. Many people, even younger people in their 20s, follow this line of thinking. Here are a few facts in no particular order: 1. Rice is placed on the left of a set meal (https://i.imgur.com/n29o2Dh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/n29o2Dh.jpg), with miso soup on the right. Traditionally, the left side is the "higher" position. 2. In a set meal, everything that's not rice is generally referred to as "okazu," or "side dish." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okazu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okazu) 3. A meal consisting of a bowl of rice with some kind of flavored salty flakes (furikake, https://i.imgur.com/hDAqndf.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hDAqndf.jpg) is considered a perfectly complete meal. 4. You ask "why no meat . . . even for the emperor" -- this is sort of a cultural blind spot for foreigners, I think. We think "oh man, meat, this is an honor!", but for a long time in Japan, meat was not only difficult to obtain, but was also seen as unclean in some ways (https://www.kikkoman.co.jp/kiifc/foodculture/pdf_09/e_002_008.pdf https://www.kikkoman.co.jp/kiifc/foodculture/pdf_09/e_002_00...). 4a. Butchers, for example, were of the untouchable (burakumin, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin) class for dealing with slaughter. This perception even exists today, to some extent, especially in wealthy families. Anecdotally, there is even a continuing modern perception of meat as "unhealthy" and "a sometime treat," even among younger people (say, in their 20s). People laugh at me for eating ~100-200g of chicken, pork, or beef per day and often point to that as the cause of my being overweight, seriously suggesting that I should instead eat 100-200 grams more of white rice per day.

pella 9y ago

HN 3y ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9387160#9389678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9387160#9389678

mfoy_ 9y ago

Culturally ingrained beliefs (especially when related to status symbols) can be really, really hard to unseat. Similarly, Doctors did not use to wash their hands before surgeries, as they were considered "Gentlemen", and thus "clean". It took a lot of evidence before most surgeons started routinely washing their hands before an operation. Sadly, the man who first noticed and promoted this practice died before the medical community finally accepted his ideas... Poor Ignaz! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis)

webbles 9y ago
What seems really interesting is that not only are culturally ingrained beliefs hard to unseat, but it seems that if they are ultimately unseated, if something resembles the old beliefs it will be immediately dismissed by the new ingrained beliefs. Being close minded is ultimately the root cause of the failures in both scenarios.
- mfoy_ 9y ago
  Care to give some examples? I can think of a few general counterexamples: * Fad diets (people flit from fad to fad, not outright reject all fad diets from then on) * Losing your faith, but then being fascinated by a foreign religion (i.e. The trope of the ex-Christian falling in love with Buddhism)
  - dwringer 9y ago
    Regarding fad diets, I can think of times when I've seen people (myself included) act biased toward new fad diets if they resemble older, popularly discredited fad diets in some way (even if it is only a superficial similarity). I think the same can apply to religion; someone might be completely turned off of Abrahamic religions by their experiences with only one of them, regardless of whether this is a "fair" assessment.
    - mfoy_ 9y ago
      Regarding GP's comment, then... is that type of closed-mindedness actually bad? If they've finally changed their mind about a deeply seated belief, that means they must have had some pretty compelling reason to do so... why would they backtrack casually?