6 ms·

Hard to decide how I feel here. I hate software patents and patent trolls, but I also hate what f2p and premium currencies have done to gaming. Which is the le

Hard to decide how I feel here. I hate software patents and patent trolls, but I also hate what f2p and premium currencies have done to gaming. Which is the lesser of these evils?

brink 9y ago
"Is murder okay, as long as you're murdering Hitler?"
- wand3r 9y ago
  People need to stop casually invoking Hitler when making serious or semi-serious arguments or analogies. Like, I hate patent trolls and think in game payments are pretty terrible. However lets put those 2 concepts in the same neighborhood. That neighborhood is nowhere near the neighborhood of the systemic annihilation of a population in as ruthless and demeaning a fashion as Hitler did. That neighborhood, to carry the analogy, is somewhere on Elon's mars colony if patent trolls & ingame payments are in Brooklyn.
  - umanwizard 9y ago
    Yeah, and suing someone isn't murder. Making an analogy doesn't imply that the things being compared are of similar magnitude. That's not even the point of analogies.
  - brink 9y ago
    My argument wasn't really serious.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
heroprotagonist 9y ago
This company actually left the F2P model for the second version: http://www.clickerheroes2.com/paytowin.php http://www.clickerheroes2.com/paytowin.php
- oldcynic 9y ago
  That was surprisingly refreshing to read. Not common to see an honest take on what's wrong with f2p gaming from a game company.
- gowld 9y ago
  " $29.99 (fully refundable for a year after launch)," That's an amazing "satisfaction guarantee", if you trust them to honor refunds. "By pre-ordering, you're putting your trust in us to develop a good game without being completely sure about what you'll get. We feel the only way to return the favor is to put our trust in you." I have no interest in their game, but I want to buy it anyway.
bhargav 9y ago
Not sure why this is even a question. The morality of the latter is subjective while the former is not. Have you seen the patent picture? They literally have a cell phone, connected to a cloud, and other computers. How the fuck is this approved by the patent office? That is literally how every transaction via cell phones occur.
- jlarocco 9y ago
  The morality of both of them is subjective.
  - ziikutv 9y ago
    Would be more useful if you can comment on how/when patent trolling would be ethical
    - Parcissons 9y ago
      Well for once, they are not stealing from little kids? Edited: Well for once, they are not enticing little kids, to steal mom or dads credit card for virtual currencys- and target as a particular group the social outcasts and looners. God it sounds even more despicable if you precise it.
    - mattnewport 9y ago
      There are certainly people who defend the concept of intellectual property in general and patents in particular as ethical. I don't agree but it's arguably even a mainstream position. I imagine at least some of them would argue that patent trolling is at least a necessary evil to achieve the greater good of intellectual property laws. I can think of a number of at least somewhat defensible arguments why patent trolls are on net a good thing if you accept the basic flawed premise that intellectual property is ethical.
    - tripzilch 9y ago
      Edit I didn't read far enough ahead before replying and I see there is in fact a very interesting discussion about the ethics of F2P gaming, that this particular gaming company is actually having and welcoming that discussion and seems to be at least very interested in making the right calls about it. So I downvoted your comment, because it's a bit ridiculous that a comment simply stating "well you're wrong because it is objectively wrong" somehow got voted above people actually having a proper discussion about the topic oldcynic asked about. /Edit No, there's no such thing as "objective morality". There just isn't, and that's by definition. Frankly I'm a bit sad that jlarocco actually got downvotes for that. You meant to say something different, and what would have been more useful if you had been a little clearer on what you actually meant to say, instead of your claim that patent trolls are objectively immoral--which is factually untrue. I'm going to guess (and I might be wrong because you weren't that clear) what you tried to say is that you consider the wrongness of patent trolls to weigh significantly more than the wrongness of facilitating addictiveness of f2p gaming and/or premium currencies. Except you didn't give any reason why, except stating that it is objectively so. So how was that for usefulness? And neither oldcynic nor jlarocco stated that patent trolling is ethical (which is actually a loaded question). There's actually all sorts of arguments you can bring to discuss about oldcynic's point. Such as by analogy of a heroin dealer complaining about the sad state of healthcare in the USA (and however you'd feel about that). Or, you know, how HN is a forum of entrepeneurs so topics like patent trolling goes closer to the hearts of some here, while the OP probably wouldn't dare to bring their sob-story to a support-forum for gaming addicts. And that is called having a discussion. Not calling one side of the point "like, just your opinion man" (subjective) and the other not (objective). I'd love to read such a discussion actually, because I'm a little torn on the topic as well. I'm not at all sure whether I should care about a gaming company making profits with in-game currency, while it's an open secret in this business that you can't really make it without actively exploiting the weakness and addictions in the human psyche (similarly to network security, not everyone is equally vulnerable, just because you won't fall for it doesn't mean the sweet rich old lady across the street knows how to install a firewall and not click on the whatsits). On the other hand, we (on this forum) all (seem to) agree that patent trolling is a bad thing. Still doesn't mean it's objectively so.
daodedickinson 9y ago
It's not even close. People have the freedom to make bad games; there's no way these trolls invented this idea and empowering them endangers everybody.
chasing 9y ago
The latter -- f2p and premium currencies -- is the lesser of two evils. By a long shot.
- Nuzzerino 9y ago
  I'd make a case for the opposite. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. Patent trolling is being dealt with, while we are only just beginning to grasp the consequences of F2P games. I have personally spent tens of thousands of dollars on such games. But frankly, the real loss for me is that the games industry has transformed from a battle of the name brands, to a battle of the addiction engineering. The games aren't even fun anymore, and I don't know whether that is mostly due to the effects on my brain over time, or the games really getting worse. Patent trolls, on the other hand, affect far fewer people, and are less likely to cause lasting psychological harm.
  - chasing 9y ago
    You’re in the minority if you’re spending that much on games and you don’t know why. I know dry little about it, but I assume you’re in the realm of addiction and should find help with that. Also, though: The game industry is experiencing a lengthy renaissance. Stay away from F2P games and dive into the huge catalogue of amazing indie games that deserve your attention and are made by people actually trying to move the art form forward. Way more satisfying, aesthetically and financially.
    - Nuzzerino 9y ago
      I hadn't checked this, but noticed the reply now. I never spent more than I could afford, but I did spend much, much more time than was healthy. I've since gotten it under control, as I've realized that if I kept doing that, I would never accomplish any of my life goals. The problem with the indie games is that there are simply too many to choose from, and the ones I like tend to be just as addicting as the F2P games.
cannonedhamster 9y ago
This is a company that literally took the path of lessening the amount of money that they receive from their users because they didn't like the ethics of it. This is not a bad company. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-11-21-clicker-heroes-developer-abandons-free-to-play-model-over-ethical-concerns https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-11-21-clicker-he...
Romanulus 9y ago
Side with the free market here: If there are people willing to pay real monies for in-game currencies, then no problems. It's a voluntary transaction. The otherwise is not true.
- dajt 9y ago
  I have 4 kids, two of which are at an age where they just throw ALL their money at these damned games. The other two will hit that stage soon enough. In my mind these games are no better than poker/slot machines. Adults should be responsible for themselves but kids can't be held to the same standard. So just one more thing I have to police. This system is a rotten, rotten idea.
  - Romanulus 9y ago
    So, then, teach your kids that.

Hard to decide how I feel here. I hate software patents and patent trolls, but I also hate what f2p and premium currencies have done to gaming. Which is the lesser of these evils?

brink 9y ago

"Is murder okay, as long as you're murdering Hitler?"

wand3r 9y ago
People need to stop casually invoking Hitler when making serious or semi-serious arguments or analogies. Like, I hate patent trolls and think in game payments are pretty terrible. However lets put those 2 concepts in the same neighborhood. That neighborhood is nowhere near the neighborhood of the systemic annihilation of a population in as ruthless and demeaning a fashion as Hitler did. That neighborhood, to carry the analogy, is somewhere on Elon's mars colony if patent trolls & ingame payments are in Brooklyn.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  Yeah, and suing someone isn't murder. Making an analogy doesn't imply that the things being compared are of similar magnitude. That's not even the point of analogies.
- brink 9y ago
  My argument wasn't really serious.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

heroprotagonist 9y ago

This company actually left the F2P model for the second version: http://www.clickerheroes2.com/paytowin.php http://www.clickerheroes2.com/paytowin.php

oldcynic 9y ago
That was surprisingly refreshing to read. Not common to see an honest take on what's wrong with f2p gaming from a game company.
gowld 9y ago
" $29.99 (fully refundable for a year after launch)," That's an amazing "satisfaction guarantee", if you trust them to honor refunds. "By pre-ordering, you're putting your trust in us to develop a good game without being completely sure about what you'll get. We feel the only way to return the favor is to put our trust in you." I have no interest in their game, but I want to buy it anyway.

bhargav 9y ago

Not sure why this is even a question. The morality of the latter is subjective while the former is not. Have you seen the patent picture? They literally have a cell phone, connected to a cloud, and other computers. How the fuck is this approved by the patent office? That is literally how every transaction via cell phones occur.

jlarocco 9y ago
The morality of both of them is subjective.
- ziikutv 9y ago
  Would be more useful if you can comment on how/when patent trolling would be ethical
  - Parcissons 9y ago
    Well for once, they are not stealing from little kids? Edited: Well for once, they are not enticing little kids, to steal mom or dads credit card for virtual currencys- and target as a particular group the social outcasts and looners. God it sounds even more despicable if you precise it.
  - mattnewport 9y ago
    There are certainly people who defend the concept of intellectual property in general and patents in particular as ethical. I don't agree but it's arguably even a mainstream position. I imagine at least some of them would argue that patent trolling is at least a necessary evil to achieve the greater good of intellectual property laws. I can think of a number of at least somewhat defensible arguments why patent trolls are on net a good thing if you accept the basic flawed premise that intellectual property is ethical.
  - tripzilch 9y ago
    Edit I didn't read far enough ahead before replying and I see there is in fact a very interesting discussion about the ethics of F2P gaming, that this particular gaming company is actually having and welcoming that discussion and seems to be at least very interested in making the right calls about it. So I downvoted your comment, because it's a bit ridiculous that a comment simply stating "well you're wrong because it is objectively wrong" somehow got voted above people actually having a proper discussion about the topic oldcynic asked about. /Edit No, there's no such thing as "objective morality". There just isn't, and that's by definition. Frankly I'm a bit sad that jlarocco actually got downvotes for that. You meant to say something different, and what would have been more useful if you had been a little clearer on what you actually meant to say, instead of your claim that patent trolls are objectively immoral--which is factually untrue. I'm going to guess (and I might be wrong because you weren't that clear) what you tried to say is that you consider the wrongness of patent trolls to weigh significantly more than the wrongness of facilitating addictiveness of f2p gaming and/or premium currencies. Except you didn't give any reason why, except stating that it is objectively so. So how was that for usefulness? And neither oldcynic nor jlarocco stated that patent trolling is ethical (which is actually a loaded question). There's actually all sorts of arguments you can bring to discuss about oldcynic's point. Such as by analogy of a heroin dealer complaining about the sad state of healthcare in the USA (and however you'd feel about that). Or, you know, how HN is a forum of entrepeneurs so topics like patent trolling goes closer to the hearts of some here, while the OP probably wouldn't dare to bring their sob-story to a support-forum for gaming addicts. And that is called having a discussion. Not calling one side of the point "like, just your opinion man" (subjective) and the other not (objective). I'd love to read such a discussion actually, because I'm a little torn on the topic as well. I'm not at all sure whether I should care about a gaming company making profits with in-game currency, while it's an open secret in this business that you can't really make it without actively exploiting the weakness and addictions in the human psyche (similarly to network security, not everyone is equally vulnerable, just because you won't fall for it doesn't mean the sweet rich old lady across the street knows how to install a firewall and not click on the whatsits). On the other hand, we (on this forum) all (seem to) agree that patent trolling is a bad thing. Still doesn't mean it's objectively so.

daodedickinson 9y ago

It's not even close. People have the freedom to make bad games; there's no way these trolls invented this idea and empowering them endangers everybody.

chasing 9y ago

The latter -- f2p and premium currencies -- is the lesser of two evils. By a long shot.

Nuzzerino 9y ago
I'd make a case for the opposite. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. Patent trolling is being dealt with, while we are only just beginning to grasp the consequences of F2P games. I have personally spent tens of thousands of dollars on such games. But frankly, the real loss for me is that the games industry has transformed from a battle of the name brands, to a battle of the addiction engineering. The games aren't even fun anymore, and I don't know whether that is mostly due to the effects on my brain over time, or the games really getting worse. Patent trolls, on the other hand, affect far fewer people, and are less likely to cause lasting psychological harm.
- chasing 9y ago
  You’re in the minority if you’re spending that much on games and you don’t know why. I know dry little about it, but I assume you’re in the realm of addiction and should find help with that. Also, though: The game industry is experiencing a lengthy renaissance. Stay away from F2P games and dive into the huge catalogue of amazing indie games that deserve your attention and are made by people actually trying to move the art form forward. Way more satisfying, aesthetically and financially.
  - Nuzzerino 9y ago
    I hadn't checked this, but noticed the reply now. I never spent more than I could afford, but I did spend much, much more time than was healthy. I've since gotten it under control, as I've realized that if I kept doing that, I would never accomplish any of my life goals. The problem with the indie games is that there are simply too many to choose from, and the ones I like tend to be just as addicting as the F2P games.

cannonedhamster 9y ago

This is a company that literally took the path of lessening the amount of money that they receive from their users because they didn't like the ethics of it. This is not a bad company. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-11-21-clicker-heroes-developer-abandons-free-to-play-model-over-ethical-concerns https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-11-21-clicker-he...

Romanulus 9y ago

Side with the free market here: If there are people willing to pay real monies for in-game currencies, then no problems. It's a voluntary transaction. The otherwise is not true.

dajt 9y ago
I have 4 kids, two of which are at an age where they just throw ALL their money at these damned games. The other two will hit that stage soon enough. In my mind these games are no better than poker/slot machines. Adults should be responsible for themselves but kids can't be held to the same standard. So just one more thing I have to police. This system is a rotten, rotten idea.
- Romanulus 9y ago
  So, then, teach your kids that.