4 ms·

This is pretty dodgy. Snopes also fact-checks articles by The Onion, which has a definite liberal lean. (Here's the tag: https://www.snopes.com/tag/the-onion/ h

This is pretty dodgy. Snopes also fact-checks articles by The Onion, which has a definite liberal lean. (Here's the tag: https://www.snopes.com/tag/the-onion/ https://www.snopes.com/tag/the-onion/) If you're going to tar them as an "arm of the culture wars" you're going to have to do a little better than this.

smsm42 9y ago
Wait, it sounds like you think mentioned that Snopes routinely "fact-checks" satire, as opposed to it being a random one-off miscommunication, is somehow counts towards Snopes being more respectable and not them just forgetting what "fact checking" used to mean one day?
- maldusiecle 9y ago
  I didn't say Snopes was more or less respectable; my point was that they aren't engaging in "culture war" by doing what this article says that they're doing. I'm not crazy about them fact-checking satire, but it's incredibly obvious why they have to--because people treat them as a one-stop-shop for finding out whether an article is real or not. For The Onion that might be easy to answer, but there are also a lot of terrible, unfunny wannabe satirical sites, and people do get confused.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    > my point was that they aren't engaging in "culture war" by doing what this article says that they're doing. True, that ("fact-checking" satire) is not an act of culture war. It is a behavior that makes them very questionable candidate as an arbiter of truth, which Facebook seems to have anointed them to be. > but it's incredibly obvious why they have to- No it isn't. On the contrary, them confusing "checking" satire and checking real facts blurs the lines between fictional expression - which can't be rated as true or false as it is not a factual statement - and factual claims which can be evaluated as true or false. > people treat them as a one-stop-shop for finding out whether an article is real or not That's a bad thing, both from the point of view of robustness - that means that people surrender their agency and critical thinking to some random site on the internet - and from the point of view of choice of that single point of failure - by choosing the site that can't even go as far as distinguishing between factual statement and fictional expression and routinely confuses the two. If they just said "The Onion is a satire site, the Bablon Bee is a satire site, that's it, move on" - it'd be fine. But the way they do it - to actually evaluate it as a factual statement and assign rating "false" to it - is mixing two concepts, and it's a bad thing. "Fact checkers" regularly commit the same thing by "fact checking" opinions they oppose as "false" - and that is very much a part of the culture war, an attempt to present one opinion as "objective fact" and the opposing one as "objective falsity". Snopes did not do it in this particular case, true - but they did it in other cases, as well as other "fact checker" outlets. That predictably hurt the reputation of the whole business.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
cryptonector 9y ago
Fact-checking satire is... a bit silly, don't you think? (Unless the fact-check of satire is itself satire.)
- maldusiecle 9y ago
  You can say that it's silly, but if it's applied evenly to either side of the aisle it's a little difficult to say it's culture war.
  - cryptonector 9y ago
    I said nothing about culture wars.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Articles from The Onion regularly find their way into mainstream news, and not as satire. It's this that Snopes is looking at.
  - cryptonector 9y ago
    Examples?
    - belltaco 9y ago
      https://www.thedailybeast.com/fooled-by-the-onion-9-most-embarrassing-fails https://www.thedailybeast.com/fooled-by-the-onion-9-most-emb...
      - cryptonector 9y ago
        No, sorry, none of these need Snopes pages. It's too funny.
        belltaco 9y ago
        To you. There are a lot of people that don't understand other cultures all that much, or are missing context. It's easy to make fun of others.
GCU-Empiricist 9y ago
I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me, or if telling you that your statement to me stated my own sentiment on these institutions better than I did and I found it ironic, and get the impression we might agree where the level of discussion should be. I hope that makes sense.
- maldusiecle 9y ago
  Not sure how I can put it anymore clearly. You claim that Snopes is engaging in "culture war." I point out that Snopes is evenly applying its policies to both conservatives and liberals, giving the lie to your original statement.
edmanet 9y ago
TIL the Onion has a liberal lean. Maybe they make fun of Republicans more than Democrats but that's only because it's like shooting fish in a barrel with the GOP. There's more to mock. (INB4 buttery males)
- maldusiecle 9y ago
  I like The Onion; I'm not trying to bash them. I think it's fairly obvious which side of the aisle most of their writers are on, and it's been especially hard to miss since the 2016 election.
zombieprocesses 9y ago
If you think snopes is an objective "fact" checker then you are too far down the rabbit hole.

smsm42 9y ago

Wait, it sounds like you think mentioned that Snopes routinely "fact-checks" satire, as opposed to it being a random one-off miscommunication, is somehow counts towards Snopes being more respectable and not them just forgetting what "fact checking" used to mean one day?

maldusiecle 9y ago
I didn't say Snopes was more or less respectable; my point was that they aren't engaging in "culture war" by doing what this article says that they're doing. I'm not crazy about them fact-checking satire, but it's incredibly obvious why they have to--because people treat them as a one-stop-shop for finding out whether an article is real or not. For The Onion that might be easy to answer, but there are also a lot of terrible, unfunny wannabe satirical sites, and people do get confused.
- smsm42 9y ago
  > my point was that they aren't engaging in "culture war" by doing what this article says that they're doing. True, that ("fact-checking" satire) is not an act of culture war. It is a behavior that makes them very questionable candidate as an arbiter of truth, which Facebook seems to have anointed them to be. > but it's incredibly obvious why they have to- No it isn't. On the contrary, them confusing "checking" satire and checking real facts blurs the lines between fictional expression - which can't be rated as true or false as it is not a factual statement - and factual claims which can be evaluated as true or false. > people treat them as a one-stop-shop for finding out whether an article is real or not That's a bad thing, both from the point of view of robustness - that means that people surrender their agency and critical thinking to some random site on the internet - and from the point of view of choice of that single point of failure - by choosing the site that can't even go as far as distinguishing between factual statement and fictional expression and routinely confuses the two. If they just said "The Onion is a satire site, the Bablon Bee is a satire site, that's it, move on" - it'd be fine. But the way they do it - to actually evaluate it as a factual statement and assign rating "false" to it - is mixing two concepts, and it's a bad thing. "Fact checkers" regularly commit the same thing by "fact checking" opinions they oppose as "false" - and that is very much a part of the culture war, an attempt to present one opinion as "objective fact" and the opposing one as "objective falsity". Snopes did not do it in this particular case, true - but they did it in other cases, as well as other "fact checker" outlets. That predictably hurt the reputation of the whole business.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

cryptonector 9y ago

Fact-checking satire is... a bit silly, don't you think? (Unless the fact-check of satire is itself satire.)

maldusiecle 9y ago
You can say that it's silly, but if it's applied evenly to either side of the aisle it's a little difficult to say it's culture war.
- cryptonector 9y ago
  I said nothing about culture wars.
DanBC 9y ago
Articles from The Onion regularly find their way into mainstream news, and not as satire. It's this that Snopes is looking at.
- cryptonector 9y ago
  Examples?
  - belltaco 9y ago
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/fooled-by-the-onion-9-most-embarrassing-fails https://www.thedailybeast.com/fooled-by-the-onion-9-most-emb...
    - cryptonector 9y ago
      No, sorry, none of these need Snopes pages. It's too funny.
      - belltaco 9y ago
        To you. There are a lot of people that don't understand other cultures all that much, or are missing context. It's easy to make fun of others.

GCU-Empiricist 9y ago

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me, or if telling you that your statement to me stated my own sentiment on these institutions better than I did and I found it ironic, and get the impression we might agree where the level of discussion should be. I hope that makes sense.

maldusiecle 9y ago
Not sure how I can put it anymore clearly. You claim that Snopes is engaging in "culture war." I point out that Snopes is evenly applying its policies to both conservatives and liberals, giving the lie to your original statement.

edmanet 9y ago

TIL the Onion has a liberal lean. Maybe they make fun of Republicans more than Democrats but that's only because it's like shooting fish in a barrel with the GOP. There's more to mock. (INB4 buttery males)

maldusiecle 9y ago
I like The Onion; I'm not trying to bash them. I think it's fairly obvious which side of the aisle most of their writers are on, and it's been especially hard to miss since the 2016 election.

zombieprocesses 9y ago

If you think snopes is an objective "fact" checker then you are too far down the rabbit hole.