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Tech company Lanetix fired software engineers seeking to organize, union claims
- lolsal 9y agoA company firing people who are trying to unionize seems to be saying that the value that the company gets for the cost of paying the employees will go down. It seems unions or unionizing might have better luck if it was able to position itself as a value increasing tool for both the company and the worker.
- nimbius 9y agoQuitting to start your own business is lauded in the annals of Americana because it positively reinforces certain tenets capitalism that are valued by the ruling class. Organizing a labor union however is vilified in American society as it directly challenges the inherent class structure of capitalism. Workers in the past have been beaten, murdered, and imprisoned not because they sought better pay and more amicable working hours, but because they dared to challenge the success and profit of the classes above them.
- pmarreck 9y agoWhich is why a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative is a more ethically-defensible way to organize humans. Or pretty much any business model where all the laborers share in any profits by the collective.
- dqpb 9y agoAre there any notable tech coops?
- nathan_f77 9y agoHere's a good list: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://github.com/hng/tech-coops
- jboynyc 9y agoSee this Ask HN from four years ago for a few good examples from around the world: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7634152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7634152
- pathseeker 9y agoHow is democratic voting control fair to the people that have put significantly more work and history into the company?
- substack 9y agoHow is a command hierarchy where a board of investors appoints a CEO fair to the people who actually built the company?
- humanrebar 9y agoThere are lots of people who vote against unions that don't care one bit about the "inherent class structure of capitalism".
- zorpner 9y agoChoosing the status quo is still a choice, in this case in favor of the inherent class structure of capitalism.
- emerged 9y agoTyranny of the many has dangers just as does tyranny of the few. There can be significant downsides to unions, so it's a bit reductive to think they're a universal good and that to disagree with them in any case is necessarily about "the inherent class structure of capitalism"
- pdkl95 9y agoUnions (or similar labor organizations) are not only a universal good, capitalism only works when ^both* labor and capital keep each other restrained. The problems start when either side is allowed to "win". Power always needs to be restrained with checks and balances.
- conanbatt 9y agoSure, and this is a good case of things being kept in check. A union that only subsists because it gets special state powers is not a union, its government.
- pdkl95 9y ago> special state powers Like the limited liability granted to corporations?
- pathseeker 9y agoI'm not sure you understand what that means. The limited liability applies to the people. The corporation is still fully liable.
- dragonwriter 9y agoThe corporation is a legal fiction created by government to shield the people from liability for harm those people cause through their agents while seeking profits; it's the original (well, at least an early) manifestation of socializing risk while privatizing gains, done through the power of the State.
- chimeracoder 9y ago> Organizing a labor union however is vilified in American society as it directly challenges the inherent class structure of capitalism. Workers in the past have been beaten, murdered, and imprisoned not because they sought better pay and more amicable working hours, but because they dared to challenge the success and profit of the classes above them. This is unabashedly revisionist. Look at what labor unions did throughout the first half of the 20th century. They went to great lengths to ensure that their members could access the privileges of the upper capitalist classes by explicitly oppressing other groups of people - black workers, east Asians, south Asians, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans. They fought to deport legal immigrants and migrant works. They fought to inter (poor) Japanese-Americans in camps in order to free up jobs for their relatively well-off, white members. After the war, they fought to prevent Japanese-Americans from returning to their homes. The immigration quotas that people oftentimes complain about on Hacker News? Those quotas were originally written to appease labor unions in the first place. The disaster in Puerto Rico? Labor unions opposed allowing foreign relief ships to temporarily service Puerto Rico, which has been standard practice for every single hurricane since Katrina, because they wanted to protect US members' paychecks. If you want to cherry-pick some good things labor unions have fought for, fine, but don't portray them as the antagonist of capitalist class structure. Labor unions have always thrived on class inequality; their goal is simply to make sure that their members are on the "right" side of it.
- dtornabene 9y agoThat depends entirely on which unions you're looking at, the wobblies were organizing across racial lines and across industries. The pullman porters were black. And, yeah, unions very much are a class antagonist, they were conceived as precisely that. I'd even go so far as to say that actually your comment is the revisionist one. Note how you start the history at "the first half of the 20th century" leaving out arguably the most violent and repressive period of union struggle. Google The Battle of Blair mountain.
- chimeracoder 9y ago> That depends entirely on which unions you're looking at, the wobblies were organizing across racial lines and across industries. The pullman porters were black. I'm looking at the unions that were the strongest, the most powerful, and the most influential. The IWW was never particularly strong after WWI, and that was at the peak of their membership. AFL- and CIO-affiliated unions were the strongest - and, more importantly, remain so to this day. It's funny you mention the porters' union - they were the first to receive recognition by the AFL. Why is that unusual? Well, they were special not because they were a union that represented black members, but because they were the first union of black members that the AFL didn't deny membership to based on race, after decades of explicitly prohibiting black unions from joining their federation. (Even after that, they refused to recognize most unions that accepted black or Japanese workers as members). > I'd even go so far as to say that actually your comment is the revisionist one. No, it's not "revisionist" to point out counterexamples to OP's claim, especially when those counterexamples include the largest group of unions for the last 100 years. Yes, sometimes it's convenient for labor unions to leverage rhetoric that flirts with socialism or communism, but in reality, their source of power is dependent on both capitalism and class hierarchy, which is why the largest and most influential ones have fought so hard to preserve it.
- refurb 9y agoOrganizing a labor union however is vilified in American society as it directly challenges the inherent class structure of capitalism. It's vilified because of the corruption and strong-armed tactics many unions have resorted to in the US. You talk about beatings and murders, but the unions pretty quickly took up those tactics as well.
- qsymmachus 9y agoThe Tech Worker's Coalition organized a protest outside Lanetix's office this morning; it had good turnout. Edit: Check out https://techworkerscoalition.org/ https://techworkerscoalition.org/ if you're interested in joining future actions.
- matte_black 9y agoWhy on Earth would software engineers want to unionize? These people should be chased out of the industry. They just don’t get it.
- mywittyname 9y agoEngineers are treated like crap at a lot of companies. Not everyone works at a FANG where they are treated like top-tier employees. Most of us are seen as overpriced means to an end. When companies complain that they "can't find qualified candidates," they really mean people willing to work cheap enough. I've given the okay to my manager on several hires and none of them were actually hired. Lots of people in our industry deal with hazing and harassment that goes unchecked. And there's no guarantee that the next job will be any better. Personally, my last job was horrible, while several people left due to harassment, those that stayed were the ones that got it the worst and couldn't leave due to being a contractor or an industry specialist.
- chrisseaton 9y ago> a FANG What's this? > When companies complain that they "can't find qualified candidates," they really mean people willing to work cheap enough. Well maybe they can't find anyone who will work cheaply enough to justify hiring them based on how much they will generate the company? That's just economics.
- mywittyname 9y agoFacebook, Amazon, Netflix, and Google. It's mostly used in reference to their stocks. As for your edit: you could be right, but if that's the case, they really should say that. Because not being able to find qualified people is different than not being able to find affordable people.
- whoisjuan 9y agoFAANG: Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google -- It's a generalization for tech companies that have been doing exceedingly well in the public market in the last 5 or 6 years.
- whoisjuan 9y ago2 words: "At-will employment." I empathize with their situation but sadly there's nothing they can do about this. Kind of naive trying to attempt this in a state like California.
- calcsam 9y agoAt-will employment has nothing to do with this. At-will employment just means your employer has no contractual obligation to continue employing you for any period of time. Certain actions are still illegal under state / federal law such as firing you for: * your sexual orientation * race * veteran status * political views * not sleeping with your boss * etc Organizing a union is one of these "protected" reasons why you cannot be fired. Of course your employer can pick another reason and say that's why they are firing you, which is what it looks like this company did. Whether that defense will hold up in court is another matter entirely.
- whoisjuan 9y agoThis is more or less what I was trying to say with my original comment. Although unionizing is protected, "at-will employment" also leaves a lot of gray areas that can be leveraged for an employer to justify a termination. For example insubordination. The employer can claim that an employee was being hostile and creating a stressful work environment.
- maxerickson 9y agoThe article is about a federal complaint they filed. There's like laws and stuff. https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employees/i-am-not-represented-union/your-rights-during-union-organizing https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employees/i...
- mav3r1ck 9y ago(commented out hastily-written comment, too late to delete).
- debt 9y ago
- booleandilemma 9y agoSoftware engineers and people who work in IT departments in general should unionize, because outside of the big five tech companies, these employees are mistreated relative to other employees at their company. Consider: 1) Workers in IT departments are less likely to get bonuses. 2) They are often asked to put in longer hours than people in other departments, because of deadlines. 3) They often have to work weekends because of “emergencies” and DevOps-related tasks that can’t take place on weekdays. Guess who’s patching the servers this Saturday? I’ll give you a hint: it’s not Bob in Sales.
- lolsal 9y ago> 1) Workers in IT departments are less likely to get bonuses. Sincere question - why should they? Are they denied bonuses that they are contractually obligated due to their compensation package? > 2) They are often asked to put in longer hours than people in other departments, because of deadlines. Sales people are often asked to travel away from their family and their homes. To me this seems like a normal 'part of the job' you sign up for. > 3) They often have to work weekends because of “emergencies” and DevOps-related tasks that can’t take place on weekdays. Guess who’s patching the servers this Saturday? I’ll give you a hint: it’s not Bob in Sales. Who else should do it? Isn't that factored into their compensation and outlined in their responsibilities before they take the job? It seems like it's part of their job to do that, more so than clicking around on HN or Reddit during the week.
- lovich 9y agoThose arguments could be used against any sort of worker mobilization ever. I do agree that they aren't great reasons to unionize. The real reason the workers should unionize is because they can, and if they do they can capture a greater percentage of the profits that the company attempts to keep for themselves
- justboxing 9y ago> Are they denied bonuses that they are contractually obligated due to their compensation package? No. The usual explanation given (in large corporate company's IT Departments) is that IT is a 'Cost Center' and not a 'Revenue Generating' center. Forget the fact that it's the software and services that these 'Cost Centers' build and maintain, which is helping Bob in sales close his sale. Source: Me. Worked at 5 different Enterprise IT companies. Got the same response from every Manager. What's even more obscene is the Managers in IT get bonuses, but not the Engineers who are doing the actual work.
- friedButter 9y agoShouldnt employers have the right to refuse to negotiate with a union and instead hire non union employees if any are available?
- overcast 9y agohttps://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act National Labor Relations Act ——————————————————— Sec. 7. [§ 157.] Employees shall have the right to self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection, and shall also have the right to refrain from any or all of such activities except to the extent that such right may be affected by an agreement requiring membership in a labor organization as a condition of employment as authorized in section 8(a)(3) [section 158(a)(3) of this title]. UNFAIR LABOR PRACTICES Sec. 8. [§ 158.] (a) [Unfair labor practices by employer] It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer-- (1) to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed in section 7 [section 157 of this title]; ——————————————
- friedButter 9y agoInteresting.. thanks I didnt realize employment was so heavily regulated in US
- qsymmachus 9y agoIt's very lightly regulated compared to most other industrialized countries.
- DaiPlusPlus 9y agoIt isn’t. Not by a far stretch compared to other well-developed nations. The rules about protected-classes are almost all the regulation there is.
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- conanbatt 9y agoTime to build Unions as a service. A VC backed startup that charges stock of companies to unionize rivals.
- tristanj 9y agoAlso discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16271005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16271005 (1 month ago, 268 points)
- gojomo 9y ago…allegedly, in a complaint filed by a union. The company’s announcement of the layoffs said it was for other business reasons.
- webbles 9y agoWhich the company now has to prove in court. What is your point?
- gojomo 9y agoThat headlines should be fair about unresolved allegations in pending legal disputes. (The original headline here omitted “, union claims” at the end.)
- mywittyname 9y agoWell, they wouldn't come out and say that it was due to illegal reasons. Now, we can't prove intent, but we can look for evidence that supports their statements. Such as, if other non-engineers were laid off, if these engineers are eligible for rehire, if only people who signed the petition were let go, or if there are open positions for engineers on their website, etc.
- gojomo 9y agoYes, but the HN submission headline (before ‘, union claims’ was added) didn’t allow for a subtler interpretion. (And, the SFChron didn’t dig much into these obvious followup details, for determining what really happened, before reporting the allegations rather uncritically – maybe as a sort of punishment for the company refusing to comment.) In this and other coverage, it’s mentioned that more than just the employees discussing a union were laid-off. There’s hints of layoffs being started, or signalled, before union discussion began. That could mean the unionization discussion was a reaction to immminent layoffs, rather than the other way around.
- wccrawford 9y agoSo many people are so quick to downvote things that don't fit their narrative. I think the word 'allegedly' should have been in the title, at least, until it's been proven.
- randyrand 9y agoWhat is the difference between a bunch of software engineers unionizing their wages versus a bunch of small and large companies all agreeing to price-fix their products? Nothing.
- pathseeker 9y agoDid you try to make a point here? If so, it seems that you are suggesting corporations have it harder given that they can't legally price fix while labor can.
- rexpop 9y agoThe difference is that workers are people, and companies are not.
- ph0rque 9y agoHere's a tangentially-related question: if I want to start-up a consultancy or agency for web development as a co-operative, are there any resources for getting it organized as such?
- ghthor 9y agoI'd start at Democracy at work. But in the end it comes down to how decisions are made and what check and balances are placed on the elements of power, such as who's an employee and what they get paid and how/what gets voted on, who can start a vote, what each vote weighs. I'd also say that transparency of execution is paramount so that members can verify that the actions/policies they are voting on are being carried out as voted.
- jboynyc 9y agoGreat question, and I wish I had a definitive resource to direct you to, but alas. However, there are a lot of conversations happening, and this is a good way to get some insight into them: https://ioo.coop/library/ https://ioo.coop/library/