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I don't think the parent is arguing those things don't have value, but rather that the primary reason that people attend college is to get a degree. Imagine a

I don't think the parent is arguing those things don't have value, but rather that the primary reason that people attend college is to get a degree. Imagine a world where all employers put no stock in degrees, but instead took upon themselves the laborious task of evaluating every potential candidate's skill in any given area such as math, persuasive writing, and so on. Assume a particular candidate had taken it upon themselves to learn a college education's worth of math outside of a university, such as by spending a lot of time in a library. In this fictional world, the candidate above would be equally valued by employers as a college graduate with similar level of knowledge. The fictional world above is very different than the world we live in. In today's world, the self-learner is unable to even apply to most jobs. The critique of credentialism is that a degree from Harvard (as in the piece of paper itself) is probably rewarded more highly in our market than having all the knowledge one could gain from studying there for 10 years. If attending a four year college did not result in a degree or other credential, how popular would it be? How many people would invest the money and time to learn for knowledge's sake?

com2kid 9y ago
> Imagine a world where all employers put no stock in degrees, but instead took upon themselves the laborious task of evaluating every potential candidate's skill in any given area such as math, persuasive writing, and so on. The cost of hiring this employee goes way up. There would be a huge gauntlet of (non-standard!) tests to try and figure out who knows what. (We are already approaching that point, but degrees serve as a first level filter.) Students would then pay for prep courses to pass these employment tests. At some point you have a 2 year tech school. The best of students who want to be more well rounded, and get the best jobs, would end up going to an institution that looks a lot like a modern university. The difference is that a student who is 100% dedicated to self learning could do it all on their own, which is a net win, but I suspect that for the majority, things would not change too much. > How many people would invest the money and time to learn for knowledge's sake? MOOCs are incredibly popular. Some of the most popular YouTube channels are educational. People give to the patreons of these creators.
- jaredklewis 9y ago
  Sure, I agree with everything you say here. I was just wanted to point out that the parent was attacking an obsession with credentials, not the value of what you learn in college. I have no particular proposed alternative to college degrees, and there may not be a good one. Credentials are probably indispensable given the aforementioned cost of evaluating performance.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > The cost of hiring this employee goes way up. The cost of hiring an employee would be offset from the employee to the prospective employer. By requiring a degree as certification, the financial burden is put on the employee before they can accrue capital to pay for it. This leaves millions in serious debt before they can even start making money. The notion that all qualified persons became qualified in the same manner ignores the rest of us who learned and gained experience with other methods. Those other methods are abundant, freely available, and comparable in quality and result to academia. > The difference is that a student who is 100% dedicated to self learning could do it all on their own, which is a net win, but I suspect that for the majority, things would not change too much. That is exactly the attitude that got us into this mess. The only reason "the majority" considers academia as an integral part of their career paths is that it is by virtue of employers using degrees as accreditation! I disagree with your notion that accreditation would [d]evolve into academia. Academia demands much more of a student than accreditation: homework, time, structure, etc. It also demands a more strict learning path. If a diverse group of people relied on a test for accreditation, the test would be better applied to that group's diverse learning paths.
  - com2kid 9y ago
    > If a diverse group of people relied on a test for accreditation, the test would be better applied to that group's diverse learning paths. The obvious counter argument to that is the incredible mess that is testing for software engineering positions! We've yet to figure that out, and compared to many other fields we have relatively quantifiable requirements! Of course the real engineering disciplines are much more quantifiable, and they have industry wide certification and licensing programs.

com2kid 9y ago

> Imagine a world where all employers put no stock in degrees, but instead took upon themselves the laborious task of evaluating every potential candidate's skill in any given area such as math, persuasive writing, and so on. The cost of hiring this employee goes way up. There would be a huge gauntlet of (non-standard!) tests to try and figure out who knows what. (We are already approaching that point, but degrees serve as a first level filter.) Students would then pay for prep courses to pass these employment tests. At some point you have a 2 year tech school. The best of students who want to be more well rounded, and get the best jobs, would end up going to an institution that looks a lot like a modern university. The difference is that a student who is 100% dedicated to self learning could do it all on their own, which is a net win, but I suspect that for the majority, things would not change too much. > How many people would invest the money and time to learn for knowledge's sake? MOOCs are incredibly popular. Some of the most popular YouTube channels are educational. People give to the patreons of these creators.

jaredklewis 9y ago
Sure, I agree with everything you say here. I was just wanted to point out that the parent was attacking an obsession with credentials, not the value of what you learn in college. I have no particular proposed alternative to college degrees, and there may not be a good one. Credentials are probably indispensable given the aforementioned cost of evaluating performance.
thomastjeffery 9y ago
> The cost of hiring this employee goes way up. The cost of hiring an employee would be offset from the employee to the prospective employer. By requiring a degree as certification, the financial burden is put on the employee before they can accrue capital to pay for it. This leaves millions in serious debt before they can even start making money. The notion that all qualified persons became qualified in the same manner ignores the rest of us who learned and gained experience with other methods. Those other methods are abundant, freely available, and comparable in quality and result to academia. > The difference is that a student who is 100% dedicated to self learning could do it all on their own, which is a net win, but I suspect that for the majority, things would not change too much. That is exactly the attitude that got us into this mess. The only reason "the majority" considers academia as an integral part of their career paths is that it is by virtue of employers using degrees as accreditation! I disagree with your notion that accreditation would [d]evolve into academia. Academia demands much more of a student than accreditation: homework, time, structure, etc. It also demands a more strict learning path. If a diverse group of people relied on a test for accreditation, the test would be better applied to that group's diverse learning paths.
- com2kid 9y ago
  > If a diverse group of people relied on a test for accreditation, the test would be better applied to that group's diverse learning paths. The obvious counter argument to that is the incredible mess that is testing for software engineering positions! We've yet to figure that out, and compared to many other fields we have relatively quantifiable requirements! Of course the real engineering disciplines are much more quantifiable, and they have industry wide certification and licensing programs.