5 ms·

> College is incredibly useful, I fail to understand why detractors insist that it has no value. This black and white approach is silly. Of course it has value

by maratd 9y ago

> College is incredibly useful, I fail to understand why detractors insist that it has no value. This black and white approach is silly. Of course it has value. The question is whether the value that it provides is sufficient to offset the cost of the tuition, housing, food, books, AND opportunity cost of not working. You're easily looking at 150k at a public institution for an intelligent kid per year. Are you saying you can't figure out how to acquire all those skills you mentioned for less than 600k and 4 years spent? And are those skills necessary for everyone?

deadmetheny 9y ago
>You're easily looking at 150k at a public institution for an intelligent kid per year. Where on earth are you getting that number? Average student debt for a public university is something like $30k for the entire degree program, so your total cost might break $100k if you consider housing and books. Opportunity cost isn't money spent and you can't exactly stop eating if you skip uni, so it's pointless to even count those.
lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
Counting housing (a cost that's required regardless and often time more expensive since you need to live where the jobs are as opposed to where the college is) and opportunity cost (while not attempting to factor in the opportunity cost of not having a degree on the other end of the equation) is disingenuous to the extreme. Even a "model" student buying his books new each semester your total costs for a public school caps at 40k a year[0] (excluding housing etc). A large cost for sure, but that's before any scholarships and assuming a top tier school and an out of state student. The skills, networking, and opportunity to safely explore career options I think were worth that cost. YMMV. [0]https://www.finaid.gatech.edu/current-cost-overview https://www.finaid.gatech.edu/current-cost-overview
- com2kid 9y ago
  > Even a "model" student buying his books new each semester your total costs for a public school caps at 40k a year[0] To be fair to the parent poster, ~30% of a public university's funding comes from taxes[0]. Add in tax breaks on the huge amounts of often urban land situated on prime real estate, and the overall cost to society is higher than just the tuition price. [0]http://uwimpact.org/uw-funding-overview/ http://uwimpact.org/uw-funding-overview/
  - lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
    If we start to factor in "costs to society" then you have to also consider RoI to society in the form of wider access to education. Both are diffuse and difficult to measure which is why, rightly imo, they're excluded from most amateur discussions. Considering the number of universities that are in the middle of nowhere, so much so that the idea of the "college town" is a thing, Im a little incredulous as to the real costs from that use of "prime real-estate" in a holistic sense.
RosanaAnaDana 9y ago
Adding to this, much of what is useful about college is what you do with your time there. 80%+ of undergrads don't understand that they should be doing things with their time as an undergrad: working in a lab; running and managing an active club; volunteering for the campus radio station. Thinking of higher education as something that is administered to students, I think, is a major reason it does so little for so many. Students have spent their k-12 years having education 'done' to them. I would argue that you only really get a successful experience at higher education if you treat it as something you are 'doing' to/for/on yourself. In that sense its very similar to any other kind of bootstrapped education, but very much so, the higher education environment is much easier to do so in.
- marnett 9y ago
  I completely agree, unfortunately the social pressures of most college institutions are pulling many into another direction. I was fortunate enough to have friends who enjoyed nights of stimulating conversation as I do, but many find themselves in a decentralized social space with no clear social hierarchy (like high school), so that becomes the bigger slice of attention and effort. We are social beings, after all.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > Students have spent their k-12 years having education 'done' to them. I think you have neatly expressed the root of the problem right there. Education is best approached by the student, not compelled by the teacher.
com2kid 9y ago
> Are you saying you can't figure out how to acquire all those skills you mentioned for less than 600k and 4 years spent? Honestly 4 years felt rushed when I was in college, there was a lot more I wish I could have learned. That aside, yes, I would reform the educational system. I'd put in place actual expectations in high school, finish it up at age 16, and have an education with the same expectations of college started where 11th grade is started now. The AP program is kind of like this, but taught in current institutions. (Also I have heard that it is watered down now days, not sure how true that is.) The Running Start program that Washington State has is a good model to build on, high school students can choose to go to a community college starting in 11th grade. Good students can finish up both HS and pre-major requirements by age 18. At that point their university diploma is just 2 years. The problem is that community colleges are not prevalent throughout all of the nation, making this scheme hard to implement nation wide. I doubt the opportunity cost is at 600k, especially for the first 2 years. If you compare learning a 2 year trade and then going to work, there is certainly some cost there. A few bad policy decisions from ill-informed voters and all that becomes moot.
- RosanaAnaDana 9y ago
  I think if starting pay for a highschool teacher was 85k a year, but came with the expectation that your students are utterly prepared for life after highschool, we could fully resolve issues with k-12. While I agree with the sentiment behind your proposals, I think the real world variance of this throws things of. As an example, I had a very hard time in HS due to social issues, and basically flunked out of math my first year. Went to community college to make up the course; did fine, got a B, and ended up continuing to take CC courses and graduated a year early (did very well in CC compared with HS at the time). Coming from a pretty low income family however, I was still utterly unprepared for higher education, in the sense that 1) my family had 0 experience on navigating the system; or 2) even having expectations of higher education. It never even occurred to me that I was almost 2 years ahead of my piers in accumulated college credits. I ended up going into the military to get the money to go to university, since my family had effectively none. It all worked out in the end, but with some decent mentorship, or even one decent teacher in HS, I could have finished an undergrad degree at 19-20.

by maratd 9y ago

deadmetheny 9y ago

>You're easily looking at 150k at a public institution for an intelligent kid per year. Where on earth are you getting that number? Average student debt for a public university is something like $30k for the entire degree program, so your total cost might break $100k if you consider housing and books. Opportunity cost isn't money spent and you can't exactly stop eating if you skip uni, so it's pointless to even count those.

lordCarbonFiber 9y ago

Counting housing (a cost that's required regardless and often time more expensive since you need to live where the jobs are as opposed to where the college is) and opportunity cost (while not attempting to factor in the opportunity cost of not having a degree on the other end of the equation) is disingenuous to the extreme. Even a "model" student buying his books new each semester your total costs for a public school caps at 40k a year[0] (excluding housing etc). A large cost for sure, but that's before any scholarships and assuming a top tier school and an out of state student. The skills, networking, and opportunity to safely explore career options I think were worth that cost. YMMV. [0]https://www.finaid.gatech.edu/current-cost-overview https://www.finaid.gatech.edu/current-cost-overview

com2kid 9y ago
> Even a "model" student buying his books new each semester your total costs for a public school caps at 40k a year[0] To be fair to the parent poster, ~30% of a public university's funding comes from taxes[0]. Add in tax breaks on the huge amounts of often urban land situated on prime real estate, and the overall cost to society is higher than just the tuition price. [0]http://uwimpact.org/uw-funding-overview/ http://uwimpact.org/uw-funding-overview/
- lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
  If we start to factor in "costs to society" then you have to also consider RoI to society in the form of wider access to education. Both are diffuse and difficult to measure which is why, rightly imo, they're excluded from most amateur discussions. Considering the number of universities that are in the middle of nowhere, so much so that the idea of the "college town" is a thing, Im a little incredulous as to the real costs from that use of "prime real-estate" in a holistic sense.

RosanaAnaDana 9y ago

Adding to this, much of what is useful about college is what you do with your time there. 80%+ of undergrads don't understand that they should be doing things with their time as an undergrad: working in a lab; running and managing an active club; volunteering for the campus radio station. Thinking of higher education as something that is administered to students, I think, is a major reason it does so little for so many. Students have spent their k-12 years having education 'done' to them. I would argue that you only really get a successful experience at higher education if you treat it as something you are 'doing' to/for/on yourself. In that sense its very similar to any other kind of bootstrapped education, but very much so, the higher education environment is much easier to do so in.

marnett 9y ago
I completely agree, unfortunately the social pressures of most college institutions are pulling many into another direction. I was fortunate enough to have friends who enjoyed nights of stimulating conversation as I do, but many find themselves in a decentralized social space with no clear social hierarchy (like high school), so that becomes the bigger slice of attention and effort. We are social beings, after all.
thomastjeffery 9y ago
> Students have spent their k-12 years having education 'done' to them. I think you have neatly expressed the root of the problem right there. Education is best approached by the student, not compelled by the teacher.

com2kid 9y ago

> Are you saying you can't figure out how to acquire all those skills you mentioned for less than 600k and 4 years spent? Honestly 4 years felt rushed when I was in college, there was a lot more I wish I could have learned. That aside, yes, I would reform the educational system. I'd put in place actual expectations in high school, finish it up at age 16, and have an education with the same expectations of college started where 11th grade is started now. The AP program is kind of like this, but taught in current institutions. (Also I have heard that it is watered down now days, not sure how true that is.) The Running Start program that Washington State has is a good model to build on, high school students can choose to go to a community college starting in 11th grade. Good students can finish up both HS and pre-major requirements by age 18. At that point their university diploma is just 2 years. The problem is that community colleges are not prevalent throughout all of the nation, making this scheme hard to implement nation wide. I doubt the opportunity cost is at 600k, especially for the first 2 years. If you compare learning a 2 year trade and then going to work, there is certainly some cost there. A few bad policy decisions from ill-informed voters and all that becomes moot.

RosanaAnaDana 9y ago
I think if starting pay for a highschool teacher was 85k a year, but came with the expectation that your students are utterly prepared for life after highschool, we could fully resolve issues with k-12. While I agree with the sentiment behind your proposals, I think the real world variance of this throws things of. As an example, I had a very hard time in HS due to social issues, and basically flunked out of math my first year. Went to community college to make up the course; did fine, got a B, and ended up continuing to take CC courses and graduated a year early (did very well in CC compared with HS at the time). Coming from a pretty low income family however, I was still utterly unprepared for higher education, in the sense that 1) my family had 0 experience on navigating the system; or 2) even having expectations of higher education. It never even occurred to me that I was almost 2 years ahead of my piers in accumulated college credits. I ended up going into the military to get the money to go to university, since my family had effectively none. It all worked out in the end, but with some decent mentorship, or even one decent teacher in HS, I could have finished an undergrad degree at 19-20.