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While I agree the the economic impact of government-assisted education is often overstated (or at least misunderstood) and that a degree and an education is not

While I agree the the economic impact of government-assisted education is often overstated (or at least misunderstood) and that a degree and an education is not a 1:1 mapping in either direction, education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal, IMO. That often seems to get forgotten in these discussions.

theseatoms 9y ago
Yeah. Just recognize it as "consumption" rather than "investment" in economic terms. People usually conflate the two with regard to home-ownership as well.
- Symmetry 9y ago
  Even if education were entirely a matter of signalling (which obviously isn't true) then it would still be a perfectly good personal investment in that it would get you a better job than you would have otherwise. It would just be social subsidies of it that would be consumption rather than investment.
- triplesec 9y ago
  I must strongly dissent. The investment in education-not-training often benefits society in other ways, which turn out to be indirectly economically beneficial, and directly and indirectly socially constructive; these lead in most cases on average to a greater happiness and complexity and learning in such a society, in a positive feedback loop. So no, I think the dismal bottom-line assumptions of your economics are sorely lacking.
DanAndersen 9y ago
Absolutely, but education for education's sake can easily be provided for cheap or free via MOOCs, continuing education, The Great Courses, or just picking up old books and reading them.
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  I agree wholeheartedly - despite how my comment sounds I have very negative feelings on the university system in the U.S. and how overused it is. My father was actually invited by a local youth group to address the kids on the importance of education a few years ago, because they thought he was very well educated. He showed up and informed them that he had dropped out of his third-world country high school and never regretted it, and then he showed the kids a bunch of books on random areas he had enjoyed and told them stories of how he applied that knowledge to various jobs to solve problems, help people, and advance his career. Stuck with me.
- ChrisRackauckas 9y ago
  These materials stop at a very low level though (undergraduate education). You really can't find canned lectures on many "mildly advanced" topics (even calling upper division undergraduate work "mildly advanced"). It's hard to find someone to ask questions about nonlinear partial differential equations if you get stuck in some book and aren't at a university.
  - TallGuyShort 9y ago
    MOOCs aren't a replacement for university, but a lot of people don't need a full university education in the first place. As I said in another comment, there is not a 1:1 mapping between university and education in either direction. Some people go to university and don't learn as much valuable stuff as they paid for or studied for, and some people learn valuable things without going to university. MOOCs address different needs: a lot of people who go to university and get humanities degrees and then work in non-humanities related fields didn't need a university education, and if they weren't required to do the signaling, could have benefited more by a broader, less in-depth education. Continuing education to keep up with advanced in your field, classes to teach you new skills you're interested in to just discover new things, etc. These are all important parts of an education, and university doesn't do them all that well.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    And if you are asking those questions, then you might personally find a university to be useful! But that does not mean university should be demanded of everyone!
conanbatt 9y ago
> education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal Obviously there is an opportunity cost which can affect individuals terribly. Look at all the med students that dropped out and tell them "well, you got some education right?"
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  I do agree. It's a concept that was introduced to me in AP Economics, but I think it should be introduced WAY before more kids are making life decisions. Not sure if I just learned it unusually late...
saas_co_de 9y ago
> education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal Yes, but a big part of university is just checking boxes to get the degree to get the job. There are some classes that are great and educational and there are some that are just wasting time sitting in classrooms with some poor underpaid grad student going through a powerpoint and giving you a standardized test. The more expensive university gets the less it can be about education and the more it has to be evaluated as an investment. The average student has to pay back their tuition with interest (double the price at least) so if they aren't looking at it as an investment they are not going to experience good outcomes.
beisner 9y ago
I see it more as an investment in society, not in an individual. K-12 education is (in theory) a good example of this: free, high-quality (again, in theory) public education creates a populace with a certain set of skills and abilities. These skills and abilities aren't directly correlated with professional productivity, but they do contribute (IN THEORY) to better-functioning adults that are critical consumers of the world around them. A basic grasp of history, science, health, culture, math are all important aspects of a functioning democracy, as they enable citizens to assess the world and make more educated decisions about policy and societal changes. College is an extension of this. I was a computer science major, so I definitely did see professional benefits from my education, but a major part of my education involved the non-major classes I took in history, anthropology, language, etc, as well as the concentrated interactions I had with peers from diverse backgrounds. Had I not attained a practical degree, the return on investment might not have been terribly high at a personal level (as the article describes), but at a societal level, having more people who have a more accurate and nuanced understanding of the world undoubtedly helps us achieve societal goals.
- ethiclub 9y ago
  Agreed, I believe there are many significant unmeasured externalities - The benefits of financial educations, the computer science education that is making this very automation possible, the critical thinking skills etc. And on the other side of the coin, the opportunity cost of the student not working 4 years 'in the real world'. But generally (and probably controversially, although the following is not intended to devalue non-uni-goers) I would place massive value in it producing more scientific, globally aware people - And being the best structure to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' to embody human 'continuous improvement'
HillaryBriss 9y ago
> education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal i definitely agree. but i think education for education's sake can be delivered in less expensive, more efficient formats than degree programs from accredited colleges
thomastjeffery 9y ago
Instead of a goal, education has become a requirement where it is not necessary, or affordable. Because of this, millions of people are starting their adult lives in serious debt.

theseatoms 9y ago

Yeah. Just recognize it as "consumption" rather than "investment" in economic terms. People usually conflate the two with regard to home-ownership as well.

Symmetry 9y ago
Even if education were entirely a matter of signalling (which obviously isn't true) then it would still be a perfectly good personal investment in that it would get you a better job than you would have otherwise. It would just be social subsidies of it that would be consumption rather than investment.
triplesec 9y ago
I must strongly dissent. The investment in education-not-training often benefits society in other ways, which turn out to be indirectly economically beneficial, and directly and indirectly socially constructive; these lead in most cases on average to a greater happiness and complexity and learning in such a society, in a positive feedback loop. So no, I think the dismal bottom-line assumptions of your economics are sorely lacking.

DanAndersen 9y ago

Absolutely, but education for education's sake can easily be provided for cheap or free via MOOCs, continuing education, The Great Courses, or just picking up old books and reading them.

TallGuyShort 9y ago
I agree wholeheartedly - despite how my comment sounds I have very negative feelings on the university system in the U.S. and how overused it is. My father was actually invited by a local youth group to address the kids on the importance of education a few years ago, because they thought he was very well educated. He showed up and informed them that he had dropped out of his third-world country high school and never regretted it, and then he showed the kids a bunch of books on random areas he had enjoyed and told them stories of how he applied that knowledge to various jobs to solve problems, help people, and advance his career. Stuck with me.
ChrisRackauckas 9y ago
These materials stop at a very low level though (undergraduate education). You really can't find canned lectures on many "mildly advanced" topics (even calling upper division undergraduate work "mildly advanced"). It's hard to find someone to ask questions about nonlinear partial differential equations if you get stuck in some book and aren't at a university.
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  MOOCs aren't a replacement for university, but a lot of people don't need a full university education in the first place. As I said in another comment, there is not a 1:1 mapping between university and education in either direction. Some people go to university and don't learn as much valuable stuff as they paid for or studied for, and some people learn valuable things without going to university. MOOCs address different needs: a lot of people who go to university and get humanities degrees and then work in non-humanities related fields didn't need a university education, and if they weren't required to do the signaling, could have benefited more by a broader, less in-depth education. Continuing education to keep up with advanced in your field, classes to teach you new skills you're interested in to just discover new things, etc. These are all important parts of an education, and university doesn't do them all that well.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  And if you are asking those questions, then you might personally find a university to be useful! But that does not mean university should be demanded of everyone!

conanbatt 9y ago

> education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal Obviously there is an opportunity cost which can affect individuals terribly. Look at all the med students that dropped out and tell them "well, you got some education right?"

TallGuyShort 9y ago
I do agree. It's a concept that was introduced to me in AP Economics, but I think it should be introduced WAY before more kids are making life decisions. Not sure if I just learned it unusually late...

saas_co_de 9y ago

> education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal Yes, but a big part of university is just checking boxes to get the degree to get the job. There are some classes that are great and educational and there are some that are just wasting time sitting in classrooms with some poor underpaid grad student going through a powerpoint and giving you a standardized test. The more expensive university gets the less it can be about education and the more it has to be evaluated as an investment. The average student has to pay back their tuition with interest (double the price at least) so if they aren't looking at it as an investment they are not going to experience good outcomes.

beisner 9y ago

I see it more as an investment in society, not in an individual. K-12 education is (in theory) a good example of this: free, high-quality (again, in theory) public education creates a populace with a certain set of skills and abilities. These skills and abilities aren't directly correlated with professional productivity, but they do contribute (IN THEORY) to better-functioning adults that are critical consumers of the world around them. A basic grasp of history, science, health, culture, math are all important aspects of a functioning democracy, as they enable citizens to assess the world and make more educated decisions about policy and societal changes. College is an extension of this. I was a computer science major, so I definitely did see professional benefits from my education, but a major part of my education involved the non-major classes I took in history, anthropology, language, etc, as well as the concentrated interactions I had with peers from diverse backgrounds. Had I not attained a practical degree, the return on investment might not have been terribly high at a personal level (as the article describes), but at a societal level, having more people who have a more accurate and nuanced understanding of the world undoubtedly helps us achieve societal goals.

ethiclub 9y ago
Agreed, I believe there are many significant unmeasured externalities - The benefits of financial educations, the computer science education that is making this very automation possible, the critical thinking skills etc. And on the other side of the coin, the opportunity cost of the student not working 4 years 'in the real world'. But generally (and probably controversially, although the following is not intended to devalue non-uni-goers) I would place massive value in it producing more scientific, globally aware people - And being the best structure to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' to embody human 'continuous improvement'

HillaryBriss 9y ago

> education for education's sake is a perfectly worthwhile goal i definitely agree. but i think education for education's sake can be delivered in less expensive, more efficient formats than degree programs from accredited colleges

thomastjeffery 9y ago

Instead of a goal, education has become a requirement where it is not necessary, or affordable. Because of this, millions of people are starting their adult lives in serious debt.