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I am disappointed beyond words. If they indeed surveiled Norwegian citizens I except all responsible will be severely punished and that examples are made. These

by freekh 9y ago

I am disappointed beyond words. If they indeed surveiled Norwegian citizens I except all responsible will be severely punished and that examples are made. These days I feel examples are made of people that did much less to impact personal freedom and democracy. Obviously the Rechtsstaat has cumbled already... I believed Norway to be above such dystopian practices. </rage>

cjcfjrf 9y ago
I think cultural enrichment from single adult males fleeing territories with conditions so bad that they couldn't even being their women and kids is much more important than your self important privacy. Go check your privilege. Edit: why this tone? Because straight tone is considered racist by the collective "hackers" who forget statistics when it is against their narrative
- jerheinze 9y ago
  Racism is racism regardless of whether you coat it in "statistics".
  - rimliu 9y ago
    While the above comment may not be the best or suitable, where do you see racism in it?
    - tehwebguy 9y ago
      I'm not sure it was racist either but it was supremely bad. It puts mass surveillance up as the only solution to the alleged problem and meanly belittles the previous poster for a desire that differs from their own.
      - cjcfjrf 9y ago
        "The only solution "? I think you missed my sarcasm and the edit. I am 100% for privacy and 101% for solving the root problem if you didn't get the hint
- dang 9y ago
  This sort of attack breaks the site guidelines and will get your account banned on HN, regardless of what ideology you favor. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
vidarh 9y ago
Why would you think that? It was a "public secret" in Norway for decades that the security services engaged in illegal surveillance mostly of the Norwegian left wing. E.g. I have personally talked to people who were the subject of surveillance well in excess of what the law allowed - one was a trade union organizer and member of the communist party that was followed to and from work every day for many years - his only explanation (after all they did not put every member of the communist party under surveillance) was that his route to work led past the Soviet embassy. Another was the longtime editor of the communist newspaper Friheten ("Freedom"), Arne Jørgensen [1], who told me about how he for a period regularly had agents of the security services stop him in the streets to rattle him by e.g. commenting on details of private conversations he had the previous day with his wife at home. This was reported regularly for years, but was laughed off as conspiracy theories, until it got a point where it could not be denied any more, and the Lund report[2] revealed extensive illegal surveillance. Former prime minister Willoch defended the illegal surveillance against e.g. AKP-ML (Maoists ) with arguing they were an illegal organization. But no decision to outlaw them have ever been made. During the writing of the Lund report, it became clear that one of the members, Berge Furre [3], a theologian and former Socialist Left (SV) politician, was still under illegal surveillance during his work on the report into the illegal surveillance. None of the people involved were charged with anything. The security services changed name from POT to PST, and everything else remained largely unchanged. Years later, when the first reports of Norwegian complicity in NSA surveillance was reported, the paper that reported it was pushed into a retraction after Grandhagen, the then leader of the notoriously tight-lipped military sercurity service uncharacteristically "took the blame" for reported surveillance that for every other country in the same document had turned out to be civilian surveillance of their own citizens, and claimed that Norway was somehow feeding the NSA metadata on phone conversations in Afghanistan of a volume that meant Norway somehow must be tapping every phoneline in the country. Nobody in the press admitted to asking follow up questions about why military intelligence would suddenly gie out details like that, nor about why the US would be interested given reports that the US at the time themselves did not just capture meta data, but full voice recordings from Afghanistan. Nobody reacted. Both Dagbladet and Aftenposten (major newspapers) deleted a slew of comments in their forums asking why nobody had asked questions about this of Grandhagen. Like with the surveillance uncovered by the Lund report, any questions about this now gets met just with a shrug. Then a couple of years ago, Aftenposten reported about a lot of unregistered IMSI catchers in Oslo. Again the intelligence services just insisted they were looking into it, after which the IMSI catchers "disappeared". There's decades of history of this bullshit in Norway, and decades of experience showing that most people just refuse to question the official stories until things like the Lund report, and then go back to quietly accepting the official stories. Part of it is probably that it has been relatively benign in Norway. No secret prisons, very little government interference in the press, etc. - it's mostly been just surveillance, so few people have been affected, and those who have been affected have been far out on the political fringes. But I see no reason why that would change now. [1] Norwegian wikipedia entry as I don't think he's covered in the English one: https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_J%C3%B8rgensen_(redakt%C3%B8r) https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_J%C3%B8rgensen_(redakt%C3... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lund_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lund_Report [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berge_Furre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berge_Furre

by freekh 9y ago

cjcfjrf 9y ago

I think cultural enrichment from single adult males fleeing territories with conditions so bad that they couldn't even being their women and kids is much more important than your self important privacy. Go check your privilege. Edit: why this tone? Because straight tone is considered racist by the collective "hackers" who forget statistics when it is against their narrative

jerheinze 9y ago
Racism is racism regardless of whether you coat it in "statistics".
- rimliu 9y ago
  While the above comment may not be the best or suitable, where do you see racism in it?
  - tehwebguy 9y ago
    I'm not sure it was racist either but it was supremely bad. It puts mass surveillance up as the only solution to the alleged problem and meanly belittles the previous poster for a desire that differs from their own.
    - cjcfjrf 9y ago
      "The only solution "? I think you missed my sarcasm and the edit. I am 100% for privacy and 101% for solving the root problem if you didn't get the hint
dang 9y ago
This sort of attack breaks the site guidelines and will get your account banned on HN, regardless of what ideology you favor. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

vidarh 9y ago

Why would you think that? It was a "public secret" in Norway for decades that the security services engaged in illegal surveillance mostly of the Norwegian left wing. E.g. I have personally talked to people who were the subject of surveillance well in excess of what the law allowed - one was a trade union organizer and member of the communist party that was followed to and from work every day for many years - his only explanation (after all they did not put every member of the communist party under surveillance) was that his route to work led past the Soviet embassy. Another was the longtime editor of the communist newspaper Friheten ("Freedom"), Arne Jørgensen [1], who told me about how he for a period regularly had agents of the security services stop him in the streets to rattle him by e.g. commenting on details of private conversations he had the previous day with his wife at home. This was reported regularly for years, but was laughed off as conspiracy theories, until it got a point where it could not be denied any more, and the Lund report[2] revealed extensive illegal surveillance. Former prime minister Willoch defended the illegal surveillance against e.g. AKP-ML (Maoists ) with arguing they were an illegal organization. But no decision to outlaw them have ever been made. During the writing of the Lund report, it became clear that one of the members, Berge Furre [3], a theologian and former Socialist Left (SV) politician, was still under illegal surveillance during his work on the report into the illegal surveillance. None of the people involved were charged with anything. The security services changed name from POT to PST, and everything else remained largely unchanged. Years later, when the first reports of Norwegian complicity in NSA surveillance was reported, the paper that reported it was pushed into a retraction after Grandhagen, the then leader of the notoriously tight-lipped military sercurity service uncharacteristically "took the blame" for reported surveillance that for every other country in the same document had turned out to be civilian surveillance of their own citizens, and claimed that Norway was somehow feeding the NSA metadata on phone conversations in Afghanistan of a volume that meant Norway somehow must be tapping every phoneline in the country. Nobody in the press admitted to asking follow up questions about why military intelligence would suddenly gie out details like that, nor about why the US would be interested given reports that the US at the time themselves did not just capture meta data, but full voice recordings from Afghanistan. Nobody reacted. Both Dagbladet and Aftenposten (major newspapers) deleted a slew of comments in their forums asking why nobody had asked questions about this of Grandhagen. Like with the surveillance uncovered by the Lund report, any questions about this now gets met just with a shrug. Then a couple of years ago, Aftenposten reported about a lot of unregistered IMSI catchers in Oslo. Again the intelligence services just insisted they were looking into it, after which the IMSI catchers "disappeared". There's decades of history of this bullshit in Norway, and decades of experience showing that most people just refuse to question the official stories until things like the Lund report, and then go back to quietly accepting the official stories. Part of it is probably that it has been relatively benign in Norway. No secret prisons, very little government interference in the press, etc. - it's mostly been just surveillance, so few people have been affected, and those who have been affected have been far out on the political fringes. But I see no reason why that would change now. [1] Norwegian wikipedia entry as I don't think he's covered in the English one: https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_J%C3%B8rgensen_(redakt%C3%B8r) https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_J%C3%B8rgensen_(redakt%C3... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lund_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lund_Report [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berge_Furre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berge_Furre