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Adam Smith, the American founders, Locke, Hume... and others that form the basis of ideological capitalism... they idealized independent people, usually farmers

Adam Smith, the American founders, Locke, Hume... and others that form the basis of ideological capitalism... they idealized independent people, usually farmers. Entrepreneurs, maybe 10 person tin factories. Facebook or Unilever... Idk if an economy of mostly these is all that capitalist, by the proponents' definition. Then you need to read the french free marketers like Frederic Bastiat or Gustave de Molinari :p

dalbasal 9y ago
True, these guys (having come later, and often writing in direct response to Marx, a contemporary) are easier to think of in the context of post industrial economies. IDK, Molinari. I do know Bastiat, but I can't recall anything that speaks directly to the reality of an economy made up of mostly large firms. He's pretty early though, and the world wasn't like that yet (even though Marx saw it coming, I think). The "Austrians" (particularly Hayek, IMO) do address this world of megafirms a lot more than earlier writers (again, makes sense considering the times). This is getting a lot closer to modern theories, with Hayek directly defending "capitalism" (free market systems, and here we really have the modern ideological framework in a similar form to today's). They (Hayek & Mises anyway) had much more modern, abstract theories. Hayek described the economy as an information system, with price signals as its source of information flow. This certainly is a defense (one the the most interesting and convincing, IMO) of free markets, but we're back to the modern definition. ..It's fairly tangential to Marx' definition, and harder to argue for from a traditionally ideological/liberal perspective. IE, it's fairly tangential to and disconnected from the "liberals" of the british enlightenment or the american revolution.
- ttoinou 9y ago
  FYI Bastiat wrote before Marx (Bastiat most likely is among the ones Marx talked about when he said "bourgeois economists have said [...]") There were already mega firms back then (East India Company IIRC ?)
  - dalbasal 9y ago
    Interesting, I always thought bastiat was writing in response to marx... You're right about the colonial megafirms, they were really the forerunners of today's corporate world...quarterly stock price pressure and all. But, they're pretty absent from most examples of that time. Maybe it's because they didn't operate in Europe much. Modern free marketers can easily disown them on crown issued monopoly grounds. Smith considered them the same as guilds... Even Marxists didn't really pay as much attention to them as they should have, considering hindsight.

dalbasal 9y ago

True, these guys (having come later, and often writing in direct response to Marx, a contemporary) are easier to think of in the context of post industrial economies. IDK, Molinari. I do know Bastiat, but I can't recall anything that speaks directly to the reality of an economy made up of mostly large firms. He's pretty early though, and the world wasn't like that yet (even though Marx saw it coming, I think). The "Austrians" (particularly Hayek, IMO) do address this world of megafirms a lot more than earlier writers (again, makes sense considering the times). This is getting a lot closer to modern theories, with Hayek directly defending "capitalism" (free market systems, and here we really have the modern ideological framework in a similar form to today's). They (Hayek & Mises anyway) had much more modern, abstract theories. Hayek described the economy as an information system, with price signals as its source of information flow. This certainly is a defense (one the the most interesting and convincing, IMO) of free markets, but we're back to the modern definition. ..It's fairly tangential to Marx' definition, and harder to argue for from a traditionally ideological/liberal perspective. IE, it's fairly tangential to and disconnected from the "liberals" of the british enlightenment or the american revolution.

ttoinou 9y ago
FYI Bastiat wrote before Marx (Bastiat most likely is among the ones Marx talked about when he said "bourgeois economists have said [...]") There were already mega firms back then (East India Company IIRC ?)
- dalbasal 9y ago
  Interesting, I always thought bastiat was writing in response to marx... You're right about the colonial megafirms, they were really the forerunners of today's corporate world...quarterly stock price pressure and all. But, they're pretty absent from most examples of that time. Maybe it's because they didn't operate in Europe much. Modern free marketers can easily disown them on crown issued monopoly grounds. Smith considered them the same as guilds... Even Marxists didn't really pay as much attention to them as they should have, considering hindsight.