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This headline is a good example of getting the target (you) to think past the sale: if you deny bitcoin is "something worse" you are implicitly conceding it is,

This headline is a good example of getting the target (you) to think past the sale: if you deny bitcoin is "something worse" you are implicitly conceding it is, in fact, a waste of energy (when contrasted with HFT server farms, I suppose?) Trump did this with the "and mexico will pay for it" addendum to building the wall. By getting people to say "Mexico will never pay for it!" they are mentally conceding the wall. I dislike these sorts of verbal tactics, but they are effective manipulations.

RandomInteger4 9y ago
This might sound weird, but we should teach rhetoric in schools, which includes these kinds of dishonest player verbal tactics, because my thinking is that if we can name and speak openly on a meta level about these types of manipulative tactics, we can defend against them more effective. Similar to teaching people how to hack for the sake of improving computer security, or maybe more similar to the old fantasy trope of the monster / sorcerer or whatever losing it's power if you know it's name. I feel like most people know of these tactics, but they can't call them out effectively, because it's cumbersome and awkward to do so.
- pbh101 9y ago
  We used to: the ‘liberal arts’ originally referred to the ‘quadrivium:’ arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy; and the ‘trivium:’ grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
mc32 9y ago
Much of news is based on the same style of rhetoric. You're asking both the pro and con positions to be neutral in their speech. That's not going to happen. Media with positions I agree with do this, I recognize it. It's not going way. NPR likes to say during their pledge drives that they only give us facts... Uhhuh. I mean Innskeep is notorious.
elefanten 9y ago
"Thinking past the sale" is not a thing. It's some gibberish Scott Adams made up to sell books and podcast ads. Let's take your example. Is there a documented case of someone who started out being against the wall and then got confused into supporting it by the "Mexico pays" canard? I'd love to see that. There are various rhetorical tactics and yes they can be effective... but none of them amount to Jedi mind tricks. edit: to test my assertion, google that phrase. then google it with only results from 2015 or earlier. Scott Adams all the way down.
bfung 9y ago
Tangent and slightly off topic... but I'm interested in the thinking here. Maybe I take propositional statements a bit too literally? I don't see the trick, or it's not even a good trick. Is bitcoin a waste of electricity: 1. No. something worse? No. 2. No. something worse? Yes. <-- doesn't make logical sense. 3. Yes. something worse? No. It's just a waste of elec. 4. Yes. something worse? Yes. <-- really hate bitcoin here So in case 1, how is it conceding that bitcoin is a waste of energy? Case 3 & 4 already agrees that bitcoin is a waste of energy regardless of "something worse". Maybe the better statement is "Bitcoin is worse than wasting electricity"(???) Then the target needs to deny that it's "worse" before considering "waste of electricity". Thoughts?

RandomInteger4 9y ago

This might sound weird, but we should teach rhetoric in schools, which includes these kinds of dishonest player verbal tactics, because my thinking is that if we can name and speak openly on a meta level about these types of manipulative tactics, we can defend against them more effective. Similar to teaching people how to hack for the sake of improving computer security, or maybe more similar to the old fantasy trope of the monster / sorcerer or whatever losing it's power if you know it's name. I feel like most people know of these tactics, but they can't call them out effectively, because it's cumbersome and awkward to do so.

pbh101 9y ago
We used to: the ‘liberal arts’ originally referred to the ‘quadrivium:’ arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy; and the ‘trivium:’ grammar, logic, and rhetoric.

mc32 9y ago

Much of news is based on the same style of rhetoric. You're asking both the pro and con positions to be neutral in their speech. That's not going to happen. Media with positions I agree with do this, I recognize it. It's not going way. NPR likes to say during their pledge drives that they only give us facts... Uhhuh. I mean Innskeep is notorious.

elefanten 9y ago

"Thinking past the sale" is not a thing. It's some gibberish Scott Adams made up to sell books and podcast ads. Let's take your example. Is there a documented case of someone who started out being against the wall and then got confused into supporting it by the "Mexico pays" canard? I'd love to see that. There are various rhetorical tactics and yes they can be effective... but none of them amount to Jedi mind tricks. edit: to test my assertion, google that phrase. then google it with only results from 2015 or earlier. Scott Adams all the way down.

bfung 9y ago

Tangent and slightly off topic... but I'm interested in the thinking here. Maybe I take propositional statements a bit too literally? I don't see the trick, or it's not even a good trick. Is bitcoin a waste of electricity: 1. No. something worse? No. 2. No. something worse? Yes. <-- doesn't make logical sense. 3. Yes. something worse? No. It's just a waste of elec. 4. Yes. something worse? Yes. <-- really hate bitcoin here So in case 1, how is it conceding that bitcoin is a waste of energy? Case 3 & 4 already agrees that bitcoin is a waste of energy regardless of "something worse". Maybe the better statement is "Bitcoin is worse than wasting electricity"(???) Then the target needs to deny that it's "worse" before considering "waste of electricity". Thoughts?