5 ms·

Is Bitcoin a Waste of Electricity, or Something Worse?

28 points by chenster 9y ago

c8d3f7b49897918 9y ago
This headline is a good example of getting the target (you) to think past the sale: if you deny bitcoin is "something worse" you are implicitly conceding it is, in fact, a waste of energy (when contrasted with HFT server farms, I suppose?) Trump did this with the "and mexico will pay for it" addendum to building the wall. By getting people to say "Mexico will never pay for it!" they are mentally conceding the wall. I dislike these sorts of verbal tactics, but they are effective manipulations.
- RandomInteger4 9y ago
  This might sound weird, but we should teach rhetoric in schools, which includes these kinds of dishonest player verbal tactics, because my thinking is that if we can name and speak openly on a meta level about these types of manipulative tactics, we can defend against them more effective. Similar to teaching people how to hack for the sake of improving computer security, or maybe more similar to the old fantasy trope of the monster / sorcerer or whatever losing it's power if you know it's name. I feel like most people know of these tactics, but they can't call them out effectively, because it's cumbersome and awkward to do so.
  - pbh101 9y ago
    We used to: the ‘liberal arts’ originally referred to the ‘quadrivium:’ arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy; and the ‘trivium:’ grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
- mc32 9y ago
  Much of news is based on the same style of rhetoric. You're asking both the pro and con positions to be neutral in their speech. That's not going to happen. Media with positions I agree with do this, I recognize it. It's not going way. NPR likes to say during their pledge drives that they only give us facts... Uhhuh. I mean Innskeep is notorious.
- elefanten 9y ago
  "Thinking past the sale" is not a thing. It's some gibberish Scott Adams made up to sell books and podcast ads. Let's take your example. Is there a documented case of someone who started out being against the wall and then got confused into supporting it by the "Mexico pays" canard? I'd love to see that. There are various rhetorical tactics and yes they can be effective... but none of them amount to Jedi mind tricks. edit: to test my assertion, google that phrase. then google it with only results from 2015 or earlier. Scott Adams all the way down.
- bfung 9y ago
  Tangent and slightly off topic... but I'm interested in the thinking here. Maybe I take propositional statements a bit too literally? I don't see the trick, or it's not even a good trick. Is bitcoin a waste of electricity: 1. No. something worse? No. 2. No. something worse? Yes. <-- doesn't make logical sense. 3. Yes. something worse? No. It's just a waste of elec. 4. Yes. something worse? Yes. <-- really hate bitcoin here So in case 1, how is it conceding that bitcoin is a waste of energy? Case 3 & 4 already agrees that bitcoin is a waste of energy regardless of "something worse". Maybe the better statement is "Bitcoin is worse than wasting electricity"(???) Then the target needs to deny that it's "worse" before considering "waste of electricity". Thoughts?
prostoalex 9y ago
When the electricity prices are demand-driven, the question is meaningless. If one thinks that the energy can be put to a better use, they can set up a shop next door and start paying slightly more per kWh than the miner, thereby destroying their margins.
- dlp211 9y ago
  I don't think it's that simple. Most energy is produced without any regard for externalities. So it isn't necessarily about a better use for the energy, but the fact that it is being used at all.
  - Falkon1313 9y ago
    But the power plants are producing the energy anyway. What would be the benefit if it wasn't being used?
    - benchaney 9y ago
      Power plants produce more energy in response to increased demand.
      - RandomInteger4 9y ago
        Can you elaborate on how this process works? How the fuel gets used based on demand?
        anyfoo 9y ago
        How does the fuel in your car get used based on demand? In all seriousness, there are many types of power plants, the exact mechanism depends on how the actual energy is produced. It is true that for some renewable energy sources like e.g. solar energy, you cannot regulate production and need to store excess energy. But for fossil fuels, you (roughly) produce by demand.
        bb88 9y ago
exabrial 9y ago
I would imagine the vast majority of bitcoin is not mined using clean energy, so yes, something far worse.
phil248 9y ago
Move over Betteridge!
- gojomo 9y ago
  “Has Bitcoin Stopped Beating Its Wife Yet?”
GreaterFool 9y ago
> Now, the nation’s hottest investment is buying money. And the investment rush is raising questions about whether one reason for the slow pace of economic growth in recent years is that the nation is busy distracting itself. I can't stop laughing at this sentence. Oh the boogeyman!
lafar6502 9y ago
Is it any worse than burning the electricity with electric cars? The energy burned is never coming back in either case... I mean, why one is environmentally friendly and the other not?
- cycrutchfield 9y ago
  Electric cars are moving a person from one place to another, often displacing fossil fuel engines that would otherwise be used. Bitcoin miners are... facilitating one of the least useful currencies for doing transactions?
- Chriky 9y ago
  Electric cars are replacing a definite fossil fuel with something potentially renewable. Bitcoin is a brand new, utterly pointless use of electricity.
- anyfoo 9y ago
  "Is wasting a fire extinguisher on making pretty foam angels worse than using it to extinguish a fire? The used up fire extinguisher is never coming back in either case... I mean, why one is considered a sensible use of a fire extinguisher and the other not?"
- RobLach 9y ago
  But you have moved mass.
- Jdam 9y ago
  > The energy burned is never coming back in either case Please attend a physics class.
JudasGoat 9y ago
As a New England resident I was always curious about the heat output efficiency of a miner compared to electric resistance heating. Somebody really wants that waste heat. If only it were useful in warm weather...
- bb88 9y ago
  So moving an electron generates heat. While we use transistors at the low level to do the computation, the method they work by is shuttling electrons through substrates, which have some kind of inherent resistance. So it's all I^2R heat losses.
peterburkimsher 9y ago
Is Bitcoin efficient? Perhaps not. But it's no worse than the alternative - banks. Story 1. I went to Taipei to meet someone from HN. He wanted to pay me back for my train tickets. His American bank card didn't work in the ATM. I suggested, half-jokingly, "Why not Bitcoin?" When he was back in the US, I set up an account, and the transaction was easy. Story 2. I wanted to donate to a webcomic: http://blog.mixflavor.com/p/donate.html http://blog.mixflavor.com/p/donate.html First I tried PayPal. "We're sorry. You cannot use your PayPal account registered in Taiwan to send payments to, or receive payments from, other PayPal accounts registered in Taiwan." This lunchtime I went to my bank, to try to make a transfer. The guy at the entrance saw the screenshot, and asked a colleague. She and he then made a phone call. A third person came downstairs, and she spoke English. She couldn't understand the written Chinese, and told me it's not their bank's problem. She told me to go to another bank down the street. The second bank involved 3 people reading, translating, discussing, searching Google Maps, to then send me on to a third bank. The third bank had a security guard at the entrance who asked what I was trying to do, and took me to an ATM to make a deposit. He navigated the Chinese-language menus, asked for my phone number, took cash, and finally made the deposit. It took 45 minutes and 8 people to try to send money to someone, and I was late to come back to the office. Bitcoin is doing well, not because the blockchain is so hot right now, but because banks are just awful.
- bb88 9y ago
  I don't know. My bank account doesn't drop %20 in one day.
mozey 9y ago
I agree bitcoin is an extreme waste of electricity, but plastic bottle caps... maybe it's "good" plastic and most of it is recycled
bb88 9y ago
Why is this flagged?
- mirimir 9y ago
  My guess: Someone with flagging rights either likes Bitcoin, or feels that it's a divisive topic.
arisAlexis 9y ago
Bitcoin is a first iteration of a greater group of technologies. Latest versions do not require extra energy at all. But even Bitcoin uses much less energy for transmitting money than bank buildings etc.

28 points by chenster 9y ago

This headline is a good example of getting the target (you) to think past the sale: if you deny bitcoin is "something worse" you are implicitly conceding it is, in fact, a waste of energy (when contrasted with HFT server farms, I suppose?) Trump did this with the "and mexico will pay for it" addendum to building the wall. By getting people to say "Mexico will never pay for it!" they are mentally conceding the wall. I dislike these sorts of verbal tactics, but they are effective manipulations.

RandomInteger4 9y ago
This might sound weird, but we should teach rhetoric in schools, which includes these kinds of dishonest player verbal tactics, because my thinking is that if we can name and speak openly on a meta level about these types of manipulative tactics, we can defend against them more effective. Similar to teaching people how to hack for the sake of improving computer security, or maybe more similar to the old fantasy trope of the monster / sorcerer or whatever losing it's power if you know it's name. I feel like most people know of these tactics, but they can't call them out effectively, because it's cumbersome and awkward to do so.
- pbh101 9y ago
  We used to: the ‘liberal arts’ originally referred to the ‘quadrivium:’ arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy; and the ‘trivium:’ grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
mc32 9y ago
Much of news is based on the same style of rhetoric. You're asking both the pro and con positions to be neutral in their speech. That's not going to happen. Media with positions I agree with do this, I recognize it. It's not going way. NPR likes to say during their pledge drives that they only give us facts... Uhhuh. I mean Innskeep is notorious.
elefanten 9y ago
"Thinking past the sale" is not a thing. It's some gibberish Scott Adams made up to sell books and podcast ads. Let's take your example. Is there a documented case of someone who started out being against the wall and then got confused into supporting it by the "Mexico pays" canard? I'd love to see that. There are various rhetorical tactics and yes they can be effective... but none of them amount to Jedi mind tricks. edit: to test my assertion, google that phrase. then google it with only results from 2015 or earlier. Scott Adams all the way down.
bfung 9y ago
Tangent and slightly off topic... but I'm interested in the thinking here. Maybe I take propositional statements a bit too literally? I don't see the trick, or it's not even a good trick. Is bitcoin a waste of electricity: 1. No. something worse? No. 2. No. something worse? Yes. <-- doesn't make logical sense. 3. Yes. something worse? No. It's just a waste of elec. 4. Yes. something worse? Yes. <-- really hate bitcoin here So in case 1, how is it conceding that bitcoin is a waste of energy? Case 3 & 4 already agrees that bitcoin is a waste of energy regardless of "something worse". Maybe the better statement is "Bitcoin is worse than wasting electricity"(???) Then the target needs to deny that it's "worse" before considering "waste of electricity". Thoughts?

prostoalex 9y ago

When the electricity prices are demand-driven, the question is meaningless. If one thinks that the energy can be put to a better use, they can set up a shop next door and start paying slightly more per kWh than the miner, thereby destroying their margins.

dlp211 9y ago
I don't think it's that simple. Most energy is produced without any regard for externalities. So it isn't necessarily about a better use for the energy, but the fact that it is being used at all.
- Falkon1313 9y ago
  But the power plants are producing the energy anyway. What would be the benefit if it wasn't being used?
  - benchaney 9y ago
    Power plants produce more energy in response to increased demand.
    - RandomInteger4 9y ago
      Can you elaborate on how this process works? How the fuel gets used based on demand?
      - anyfoo 9y ago
        How does the fuel in your car get used based on demand? In all seriousness, there are many types of power plants, the exact mechanism depends on how the actual energy is produced. It is true that for some renewable energy sources like e.g. solar energy, you cannot regulate production and need to store excess energy. But for fossil fuels, you (roughly) produce by demand.
      - bb88 9y ago

exabrial 9y ago

I would imagine the vast majority of bitcoin is not mined using clean energy, so yes, something far worse.

phil248 9y ago

Move over Betteridge!

gojomo 9y ago
“Has Bitcoin Stopped Beating Its Wife Yet?”

GreaterFool 9y ago

> Now, the nation’s hottest investment is buying money. And the investment rush is raising questions about whether one reason for the slow pace of economic growth in recent years is that the nation is busy distracting itself. I can't stop laughing at this sentence. Oh the boogeyman!

lafar6502 9y ago

Is it any worse than burning the electricity with electric cars? The energy burned is never coming back in either case... I mean, why one is environmentally friendly and the other not?

cycrutchfield 9y ago
Electric cars are moving a person from one place to another, often displacing fossil fuel engines that would otherwise be used. Bitcoin miners are... facilitating one of the least useful currencies for doing transactions?
Chriky 9y ago
Electric cars are replacing a definite fossil fuel with something potentially renewable. Bitcoin is a brand new, utterly pointless use of electricity.
anyfoo 9y ago
"Is wasting a fire extinguisher on making pretty foam angels worse than using it to extinguish a fire? The used up fire extinguisher is never coming back in either case... I mean, why one is considered a sensible use of a fire extinguisher and the other not?"
RobLach 9y ago
But you have moved mass.
Jdam 9y ago
> The energy burned is never coming back in either case Please attend a physics class.

JudasGoat 9y ago

As a New England resident I was always curious about the heat output efficiency of a miner compared to electric resistance heating. Somebody really wants that waste heat. If only it were useful in warm weather...

bb88 9y ago
So moving an electron generates heat. While we use transistors at the low level to do the computation, the method they work by is shuttling electrons through substrates, which have some kind of inherent resistance. So it's all I^2R heat losses.

peterburkimsher 9y ago

Is Bitcoin efficient? Perhaps not. But it's no worse than the alternative - banks. Story 1. I went to Taipei to meet someone from HN. He wanted to pay me back for my train tickets. His American bank card didn't work in the ATM. I suggested, half-jokingly, "Why not Bitcoin?" When he was back in the US, I set up an account, and the transaction was easy. Story 2. I wanted to donate to a webcomic: http://blog.mixflavor.com/p/donate.html http://blog.mixflavor.com/p/donate.html First I tried PayPal. "We're sorry. You cannot use your PayPal account registered in Taiwan to send payments to, or receive payments from, other PayPal accounts registered in Taiwan." This lunchtime I went to my bank, to try to make a transfer. The guy at the entrance saw the screenshot, and asked a colleague. She and he then made a phone call. A third person came downstairs, and she spoke English. She couldn't understand the written Chinese, and told me it's not their bank's problem. She told me to go to another bank down the street. The second bank involved 3 people reading, translating, discussing, searching Google Maps, to then send me on to a third bank. The third bank had a security guard at the entrance who asked what I was trying to do, and took me to an ATM to make a deposit. He navigated the Chinese-language menus, asked for my phone number, took cash, and finally made the deposit. It took 45 minutes and 8 people to try to send money to someone, and I was late to come back to the office. Bitcoin is doing well, not because the blockchain is so hot right now, but because banks are just awful.

bb88 9y ago
I don't know. My bank account doesn't drop %20 in one day.

mozey 9y ago

I agree bitcoin is an extreme waste of electricity, but plastic bottle caps... maybe it's "good" plastic and most of it is recycled

bb88 9y ago

Why is this flagged?

mirimir 9y ago
My guess: Someone with flagging rights either likes Bitcoin, or feels that it's a divisive topic.

arisAlexis 9y ago

Bitcoin is a first iteration of a greater group of technologies. Latest versions do not require extra energy at all. But even Bitcoin uses much less energy for transmitting money than bank buildings etc.