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To be sure, some of this is inappropriate. Asking if someone is the "token woman" is wrong on many levels. But not all of the stories are "shocking". For exa

To be sure, some of this is inappropriate. Asking if someone is the "token woman" is wrong on many levels. But not all of the stories are "shocking". For example, one woman in this article complains that at conferences, men tend to not approach groups of women that are talking to each other, interrupt them, and begin talking to them. Is that unusual or discriminatory? I wouldn't do that, regardless of the sex of the participants in a group chat. Further, in the era of #MeToo, the chasm between men and women in the workplace will grow wider simply because of liability issues. One man's innocent, casual conversation with a female coworker can these days become that woman's #MeToo moment, aired publicly, both in the court of public opinion and in courts of law. This ultimately causes fewer interactions between men and women in the workplace - especially between direct reports and their managers - which can easily lead to fewer advancement opportunities. This is borne out in data. According to a recent study, almost 30% of male managers say they are not comfortable working alone with a woman — more than twice as many as before, according to the same study [1]. I would suggest that articles like this focus on incidents that everyone can agree is atrocious and actionable behavior. If failure to interrupt a group of women talking amongst themselves at a conference is now a #MeToo moment, it's just going to cause deeper concerns about liability, which will in turn cause even more backlash. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2018/02/06/amid-metoo-backlash-lean-ins-sheryl-sandberg-launches-mentorher-campaign/#2da792c327e4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2018/02/06/amid...

tachyoff 9y ago
I can see the Buzzfeed story now: “White Tech Bro Rudely Interrupts Women To Mansplain Something”. There is absolutely a chilling effect. I mean, do you want men to approach you when you’re having a conversation or do you want them to stay away from your space? At this point, it’s easiest to just retreat and not talk to people. At least then you don’t risk becoming a hashtag.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Seems like you've presented a false dichotomy. It's of course rude to insert yourself into many conversations. That's just a social convention.
  - tachyoff 9y ago
    Here's a catch-22 comment from elsewhere on this post: > Avoiding women in workplace is essentially sexist. And for non-sexists there is no reason to do so. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Given how easy it is for public opinion to shift, I certainly wouldn't want to take that chance. Who would want to interact with people like that in a professional setting? I wouldn't, and I try not to.
    - urahara 9y ago
      It's very unlikely to get blamed for polite respectful attention to females if you don't confuse it with any shades of sexist moves. You don't apply this logic to men, which is sexist, even considering that male jerks are a far more often thing than female ones. So why you just dont't stop contacting them first?
      - derivagral 9y ago
        I think the point they're trying to make is that the risk is close to zero for this for a straight male approaching other men, and that what you call "unlikely" is still likely enough with such a severe degree that the positive upside on such interactions is dwindling.
        urahara 9y ago
        Why bother about side effects that are unavoidable but statistically insignificant? You can say it about any type of cryme that you can be wrongfully accused of it. So what do you suggest, gust stop punishing any crimes because of it and go back to chaos? These cases are just not a valid argument. Sexism should be punished and should be stopped, side effects shouldn't stay in the way of measures against it. Our whole legal system works like that, why is it suddenly a problem exclusively when it comes to dealing with sexism.
      - anon12345690 9y ago
        The issue isnt that the group is jerks (which is easy, you just stop and move on) but that they may bring down career ending social attacks on you. Unlikely with males even if superjerks.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
urahara 9y ago
It's not #MeToo causing problems for sure since it attempts to battle sexism by raising awareness. It is sexism which causes all types of problems that you mention. Avoiding women in workplace is essentially sexist. And for non-sexists there is no reason to do so.
- homonculus1 9y ago
  This assessment naively assumes that only sexists can possibly become targets of #MeToo. Since #MeToo exists purely on a social level and without due process, the above is not the case.
- downandout 9y ago
  Avoiding women in workplace is essentially sexist. And for non-sexists there is no reason to do so. I disagree with you that there is no reason to do so for “non-sexists”. Because no one knows how a given person may interpret a given conversation or activity, combined with the severe consequences from the social media mob that even something as simple as an unsubstantiated tweet can inflict on one’s career or an entire company these days, the only way to avoid liability is to minimize interaction between opposite sexes in the workplace. In this environment, it’s the only rational thing to do. We have unleashed a virtual lynch mob, ready to instantly torch the life of anyone that stands accused of even moderately inappropriate or questionable behavior. Worse, there is no statute of limitations or standard of proof required to activate the mob - a tweet is enough. That is wrong and creates a toxic environment for everyone.
  - urahara 9y ago
    You dont't apply this logic to men somehow, despite the fact that male jerks can equally destroy you career. How about stopping your interactions with men as well then? essentially you suggest to ignore and reinforce a huge problem of sexism instead of learning how to behave correctly. This approach is harmful and stinks in both moral and professional sence. Sexism and discrimination create toxic environment, not people and actions attempting to battle it.
    - 9y ago
omikun 9y ago
> I wouldn't do that, regardless of the sex of the participants in a group chat. That's what I thought initially as well. But the proper way to frame this is to ask: out of the population of men who would join a group of 3 men, how many would also join a group of 3 women? You and I aren't even part of the first group. > This ultimately causes fewer interactions between men and women in the workplace That's a real problem. The #metoo movement is great in getting the word out, but the backlash suppresses any men of trying to get it right. You can't expect people to make progress if they don't try, and if they try, they will make mistakes. It should be ok to make them and not get demonized in the process.
- gambiting 9y ago
  "My “mentor” told me he had never worked with a woman before and wasn’t sure how to talk to me. I suggested he try talking to me like a person." Tbf, because of stories like this, I feel almost uncomfortable talking to my female coworkers - I immediately tense up and I have no idea what I can or cannot say, I carefully weigh up my every word to make sure it doesn't, even accidentally, have a double meaning or something that could be seen as patronizing, offensive, or flirty. As a consequence, I would genuinely rather not talk with women in the workplace and just avoid the risk altogether, which I am sure is just making the problem worse.
  - jiojfekjl 9y ago
    I think you can relax. Most of these stories are not about subtle or accidental sexism. She says her teammate introduced her as a token female. That's obviously inappropriate, right? I don't think I'd need to monitor my words carefully to avoid saying something so outright belittling to a coworker. She says team members would openly express that they wouldn't hire women because they would just get married. I don't know about you, but that seems like something obviously dated and wrong. Growing up, both my parents worked, and that was the norm. It's been the norm for a long time. Women aren't new to the work force. So why do people think this? In any case, it should be obvious not to say things like this. Then she says a professor followed her beck to her room and tried to forcibly kiss her. That's something obviously wrong, right? It should be easy to say "I won't follow and forcibly kiss anyone." That's like good manners 101. Basic stuff we learn in 1st grade. The sexism described here isn't the sort of thing you'd let slip by accident. There's no double meanings here. It's just bare faced disrespect for women. So please, relax. You don't need to walk on eggshells to avoid being a complete jerk. And if you still aren't sure how to talk to women, I would take the articles own advice: Try talking to them like a person.
danso 9y ago
> ”I would suggest that articles like this focus on incidents that everyone can agree is atrocious and actionable behavior. If failure to interrupt a group of women talking amongst themselves at a conference is now a #MeToo moment, it's just going to cause deeper concerns about liability, which will in turn cause even more backlash.” I’m reading this on the phone, so it’s likely I might have missed it, but does the article mention #MeToo in the context of the men vs. women groups complaint you mention? If not, it’s uncharitable to imply that the complainer here is trying to equate sexual assault with discrimination. IMO the main problem with contemporary gender conflicts isn’t going to be “incidents that everyone can agree is atrocious and actionable behavior”. Because it’s not hard for society (usually) to act on such egregious incidents. It’s I guess a good thing that professional women don’t have to constantly worry about violent sexual assault, but the author is raising the issue that seemingly innocuous behavior can still be substantially harmful. What is innocuous and what is not can still be a matter of healthy debate. But it’s worth noting how difficult it can be for even egregious behavior to get called out. I think many people can agree that Susan Fowler’s blog post about her time at Uber constituted outright horrible behavior. HN commenters seemed very united in this sentiment [0] and I think many tech observers would agree that it wasn’t one very huge chip that set off the clusterfuck that was 2017 for Uber. It may seem looking back that Fowler’s whistleblowing would inevitably cause such massive outrage. But re-read her post, which is almost as nostalgic as it is outraged. It’s not just about the harassment she faced, but the institutional resistance and denial that she, and more than a few other women faced — clearly, their complaints back then were not the level of clear cut incidents that you think should be focused on. And Fowler’s whistleblowing was just a personal blog post — not a big NYTimes expose —- written months after her departure, and likely only possible because she had the time and means to think about things and not worry about career implications. It’s very easy to imagine an alternate timeline in which she just didn’t get around to writing about Uber because even she, as she says herself in that post, was incredibly thankful and fulfilled from her work at Uber, sexual harassment aside. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022
zimpenfish 9y ago
> One man's innocent, casual conversation with a female coworker can these days become that woman's #MeToo moment Do you have any verified example of this happening?
jiojfekjl 9y ago
"One man's innocent, casual conversation with a female coworker can these days become that woman's #MeToo moment" Lets look at some notable #MeToo cases in the last year 1. Harvey Weinstein - Dozens of women accused Weinstein of assaulting, harassing, or raping them. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-ove... 2. Matt Lauer - Fired for inappropriate sexual relationship with a coworker. Not an isolated incedent, as many women came forward through his career with reports of sexual assault and unwanted sexual advances. http://people.com/tv/matt-lauer-sexual-harassment-assault-allegation-breakdown/ http://people.com/tv/matt-lauer-sexual-harassment-assault-al... 3. Mario Batali - Accused of sexual misconduct by multiple female employees. Repeated reports of Batali groping the breasts of women who worked for him. https://ny.eater.com/2017/12/11/16759540/mario-batali-sexual-misconduct-allegations https://ny.eater.com/2017/12/11/16759540/mario-batali-sexual... So where is this "innocent conversation" you mention?
- throwaway12395 9y ago
  The "innocent conversation" is the prior coworker of mine who was reprimanded by HR and put on a PIP for "bullying" a coworker when he tried to hold her accountable for work she was supposed to deliver under his lead. I was present, as were a handful of other women. None of us were ever followed up with to ask if this was a legitimate accusation. The accuser was given a red carpet to a choice team. The accusee was given additional workload to carry and taken out of a position of authority and placed in a punitive program. I have seen this happen twice in the last 3 years. Do not take this as defense of the examples you mention, but as a warning against unintended consequences that simply don't ever show up in the press because they aren't highly visible and won't draw clicks, especially if they go against the status quo. If you need further evidence, look at the speed to which a concrete, evidence backed accusation with respect to google's hiring practices got flagged off the front page, whereas this thread is still much higher ranked after much longer time and fewer votes.
- anon12345690 9y ago
  > where is this "innocent conversation" you mention? Not those cherry-picked examples obviously? Do you have access to every single report in the world? Is it impossible that some might not be completely legitimate and can act as a way to retaliate?

tachyoff 9y ago

I can see the Buzzfeed story now: “White Tech Bro Rudely Interrupts Women To Mansplain Something”. There is absolutely a chilling effect. I mean, do you want men to approach you when you’re having a conversation or do you want them to stay away from your space? At this point, it’s easiest to just retreat and not talk to people. At least then you don’t risk becoming a hashtag.

wavefunction 9y ago
Seems like you've presented a false dichotomy. It's of course rude to insert yourself into many conversations. That's just a social convention.
- tachyoff 9y ago
  Here's a catch-22 comment from elsewhere on this post: > Avoiding women in workplace is essentially sexist. And for non-sexists there is no reason to do so. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Given how easy it is for public opinion to shift, I certainly wouldn't want to take that chance. Who would want to interact with people like that in a professional setting? I wouldn't, and I try not to.
  - urahara 9y ago
    It's very unlikely to get blamed for polite respectful attention to females if you don't confuse it with any shades of sexist moves. You don't apply this logic to men, which is sexist, even considering that male jerks are a far more often thing than female ones. So why you just dont't stop contacting them first?
    - derivagral 9y ago
      I think the point they're trying to make is that the risk is close to zero for this for a straight male approaching other men, and that what you call "unlikely" is still likely enough with such a severe degree that the positive upside on such interactions is dwindling.
      - urahara 9y ago
        Why bother about side effects that are unavoidable but statistically insignificant? You can say it about any type of cryme that you can be wrongfully accused of it. So what do you suggest, gust stop punishing any crimes because of it and go back to chaos? These cases are just not a valid argument. Sexism should be punished and should be stopped, side effects shouldn't stay in the way of measures against it. Our whole legal system works like that, why is it suddenly a problem exclusively when it comes to dealing with sexism.
    - anon12345690 9y ago
      The issue isnt that the group is jerks (which is easy, you just stop and move on) but that they may bring down career ending social attacks on you. Unlikely with males even if superjerks.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

urahara 9y ago

It's not #MeToo causing problems for sure since it attempts to battle sexism by raising awareness. It is sexism which causes all types of problems that you mention. Avoiding women in workplace is essentially sexist. And for non-sexists there is no reason to do so.

homonculus1 9y ago
This assessment naively assumes that only sexists can possibly become targets of #MeToo. Since #MeToo exists purely on a social level and without due process, the above is not the case.
downandout 9y ago
Avoiding women in workplace is essentially sexist. And for non-sexists there is no reason to do so. I disagree with you that there is no reason to do so for “non-sexists”. Because no one knows how a given person may interpret a given conversation or activity, combined with the severe consequences from the social media mob that even something as simple as an unsubstantiated tweet can inflict on one’s career or an entire company these days, the only way to avoid liability is to minimize interaction between opposite sexes in the workplace. In this environment, it’s the only rational thing to do. We have unleashed a virtual lynch mob, ready to instantly torch the life of anyone that stands accused of even moderately inappropriate or questionable behavior. Worse, there is no statute of limitations or standard of proof required to activate the mob - a tweet is enough. That is wrong and creates a toxic environment for everyone.
- urahara 9y ago
  You dont't apply this logic to men somehow, despite the fact that male jerks can equally destroy you career. How about stopping your interactions with men as well then? essentially you suggest to ignore and reinforce a huge problem of sexism instead of learning how to behave correctly. This approach is harmful and stinks in both moral and professional sence. Sexism and discrimination create toxic environment, not people and actions attempting to battle it.
  - 9y ago

omikun 9y ago

> I wouldn't do that, regardless of the sex of the participants in a group chat. That's what I thought initially as well. But the proper way to frame this is to ask: out of the population of men who would join a group of 3 men, how many would also join a group of 3 women? You and I aren't even part of the first group. > This ultimately causes fewer interactions between men and women in the workplace That's a real problem. The #metoo movement is great in getting the word out, but the backlash suppresses any men of trying to get it right. You can't expect people to make progress if they don't try, and if they try, they will make mistakes. It should be ok to make them and not get demonized in the process.

gambiting 9y ago
"My “mentor” told me he had never worked with a woman before and wasn’t sure how to talk to me. I suggested he try talking to me like a person." Tbf, because of stories like this, I feel almost uncomfortable talking to my female coworkers - I immediately tense up and I have no idea what I can or cannot say, I carefully weigh up my every word to make sure it doesn't, even accidentally, have a double meaning or something that could be seen as patronizing, offensive, or flirty. As a consequence, I would genuinely rather not talk with women in the workplace and just avoid the risk altogether, which I am sure is just making the problem worse.
- jiojfekjl 9y ago
  I think you can relax. Most of these stories are not about subtle or accidental sexism. She says her teammate introduced her as a token female. That's obviously inappropriate, right? I don't think I'd need to monitor my words carefully to avoid saying something so outright belittling to a coworker. She says team members would openly express that they wouldn't hire women because they would just get married. I don't know about you, but that seems like something obviously dated and wrong. Growing up, both my parents worked, and that was the norm. It's been the norm for a long time. Women aren't new to the work force. So why do people think this? In any case, it should be obvious not to say things like this. Then she says a professor followed her beck to her room and tried to forcibly kiss her. That's something obviously wrong, right? It should be easy to say "I won't follow and forcibly kiss anyone." That's like good manners 101. Basic stuff we learn in 1st grade. The sexism described here isn't the sort of thing you'd let slip by accident. There's no double meanings here. It's just bare faced disrespect for women. So please, relax. You don't need to walk on eggshells to avoid being a complete jerk. And if you still aren't sure how to talk to women, I would take the articles own advice: Try talking to them like a person.

danso 9y ago

> ”I would suggest that articles like this focus on incidents that everyone can agree is atrocious and actionable behavior. If failure to interrupt a group of women talking amongst themselves at a conference is now a #MeToo moment, it's just going to cause deeper concerns about liability, which will in turn cause even more backlash.” I’m reading this on the phone, so it’s likely I might have missed it, but does the article mention #MeToo in the context of the men vs. women groups complaint you mention? If not, it’s uncharitable to imply that the complainer here is trying to equate sexual assault with discrimination. IMO the main problem with contemporary gender conflicts isn’t going to be “incidents that everyone can agree is atrocious and actionable behavior”. Because it’s not hard for society (usually) to act on such egregious incidents. It’s I guess a good thing that professional women don’t have to constantly worry about violent sexual assault, but the author is raising the issue that seemingly innocuous behavior can still be substantially harmful. What is innocuous and what is not can still be a matter of healthy debate. But it’s worth noting how difficult it can be for even egregious behavior to get called out. I think many people can agree that Susan Fowler’s blog post about her time at Uber constituted outright horrible behavior. HN commenters seemed very united in this sentiment [0] and I think many tech observers would agree that it wasn’t one very huge chip that set off the clusterfuck that was 2017 for Uber. It may seem looking back that Fowler’s whistleblowing would inevitably cause such massive outrage. But re-read her post, which is almost as nostalgic as it is outraged. It’s not just about the harassment she faced, but the institutional resistance and denial that she, and more than a few other women faced — clearly, their complaints back then were not the level of clear cut incidents that you think should be focused on. And Fowler’s whistleblowing was just a personal blog post — not a big NYTimes expose —- written months after her departure, and likely only possible because she had the time and means to think about things and not worry about career implications. It’s very easy to imagine an alternate timeline in which she just didn’t get around to writing about Uber because even she, as she says herself in that post, was incredibly thankful and fulfilled from her work at Uber, sexual harassment aside. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022

zimpenfish 9y ago

> One man's innocent, casual conversation with a female coworker can these days become that woman's #MeToo moment Do you have any verified example of this happening?

jiojfekjl 9y ago

"One man's innocent, casual conversation with a female coworker can these days become that woman's #MeToo moment" Lets look at some notable #MeToo cases in the last year 1. Harvey Weinstein - Dozens of women accused Weinstein of assaulting, harassing, or raping them. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-ove... 2. Matt Lauer - Fired for inappropriate sexual relationship with a coworker. Not an isolated incedent, as many women came forward through his career with reports of sexual assault and unwanted sexual advances. http://people.com/tv/matt-lauer-sexual-harassment-assault-allegation-breakdown/ http://people.com/tv/matt-lauer-sexual-harassment-assault-al... 3. Mario Batali - Accused of sexual misconduct by multiple female employees. Repeated reports of Batali groping the breasts of women who worked for him. https://ny.eater.com/2017/12/11/16759540/mario-batali-sexual-misconduct-allegations https://ny.eater.com/2017/12/11/16759540/mario-batali-sexual... So where is this "innocent conversation" you mention?

throwaway12395 9y ago
The "innocent conversation" is the prior coworker of mine who was reprimanded by HR and put on a PIP for "bullying" a coworker when he tried to hold her accountable for work she was supposed to deliver under his lead. I was present, as were a handful of other women. None of us were ever followed up with to ask if this was a legitimate accusation. The accuser was given a red carpet to a choice team. The accusee was given additional workload to carry and taken out of a position of authority and placed in a punitive program. I have seen this happen twice in the last 3 years. Do not take this as defense of the examples you mention, but as a warning against unintended consequences that simply don't ever show up in the press because they aren't highly visible and won't draw clicks, especially if they go against the status quo. If you need further evidence, look at the speed to which a concrete, evidence backed accusation with respect to google's hiring practices got flagged off the front page, whereas this thread is still much higher ranked after much longer time and fewer votes.
anon12345690 9y ago
> where is this "innocent conversation" you mention? Not those cherry-picked examples obviously? Do you have access to every single report in the world? Is it impossible that some might not be completely legitimate and can act as a way to retaliate?