11 ms·

As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. I certainly don't make any comments of similar nature or perform actions described in the stories. However, if I were to

As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. I certainly don't make any comments of similar nature or perform actions described in the stories. However, if I were to observe such an event happening, I'd be frozen. One half of me thinks, the woman is an individual and can stand up for herself. If she's uncomfortable, she'll say or do something. She's of equal standing. The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views, protecting women from the danger. Women wouldn't be considered an equal in this scenario.

stewartjarod 9y ago
I feel exactly the same way and have faced similar thoughts. If nothing happens I assume no offense was taken and move on I guess... but sometimes that bothers me more.
droopybuns 9y ago
Maybe do what you think is right and be quick to apologize if it is appropriate. Edit: I am absolutely baffled by the downvotes. What am I missing?
msie 9y ago
Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it. I would feel intimidated walking up to a group of women because I might be criticized for anything I did. And wouldn't a woman feel intimidated walking up to a group of men too?
- gowld 9y ago
  Yes, and that's part of the problem to solve.
  - msie 9y ago
    And it's hard enough for me to approach groups of men, let alone groups of women.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
eropple 9y ago
> The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views When I have been in these situations, the root problem has been someone being shitty to a friend/colleague/co-worker/whatever. Saying "that's shitty, stop" doesn't mean you're speaking for any particular person or that you're defending her person specifically--what you are doing, and you can explain if asked, is that you are establishing social norms with your behavior that you are telling the group that you expect everybody to follow. There are many axes along which one can be shitty, and it is not a reinforcement of patriarchal structures to set expectations that people be decent to one another--so long, of course, as you're doing so evenly. I have gone hard at co-workers who were shitty to women. I have also gone hard at co-workers who were jerks in code reviews. What I quoted strikes me as perhaps a misapplication of the idea of patriarchy and what it does to society--at least, in the sort of case you're describing. Could this be taken to an extreme that would validate your concerns? Totally. But in practice? It never has been the case for me (and I am solicitous about asking if I am out of my lane). It is important to be willing to listen, in case that, yes, you are out of your lane--but I have never seen a default posture of "no, we don't allow shitty behavior up in here" cause friction with anybody it shouldn't cause friction with.
msie 9y ago
This reminds me of a tweet thread I read today where it seemed the guy was unnecessarily lambasted for raising a question to a feminist: https://twitter.com/akaij/status/968968751063490562 https://twitter.com/akaij/status/968968751063490562 Kelly Ellis: "But, y'know, thanks for being the dude chiming in with unnecessary remarks intended to undermine both my point, and the plaintiff's lawsuit, while we discuss the topic of gender-based discrimination and harassment. Super helpful and appreciated." akay: "not at all what I was trying to do, sorry if it came across that way. I just don't see how confirming the existence of nerf guns within that team helps the discussion in any way. unnecessarily harsh, this tweet." So sometimes we men just remain silent.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  Let’s be a bit more intellectually honest and not compare the dumpster fire of Twitter, to the workplace. Dumpster fire: http://variety.com/2018/digital/news/twitter-ceo-abuse-1202714236/ http://variety.com/2018/digital/news/twitter-ceo-abuse-12027...
  - msie 9y ago
    This seemed like a legitimate interaction. Do you know otherwise?
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      I have a problem with that statement. Still it’s good to see thst your first instinct is military grade handwaving. I have to wonder if you have similarly high standards in all cssss, or if your skepticism is reserved primarily as a means of deflection. All of which is to say thst you could actually trust the people telling you their stories in the article, or discuss the underlying issues, rather than deflect via nitpicking. It’s grotesque. This whole thread, the voting patterns, the flagging of the article, and the sheer force of whining from people who feel put upon by hearing about this is also grotesque... More than it would be on another site, where at least stupidity and lack of education could be an excuse. Edit: I mean, look at this thread and compare it here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16497551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16497551 It would be funny, if it weren’t so childishly obvious.
alexandercrohde 9y ago
I think this is a really honest point. I'd also like to springboard off of it. As the authors point out, many men are shocked by these stories. I am too. I've been in tech 10 years or so (mostly startups) and have a lot of semi-abusive stuff to report, but none of it that I've seen is gender/sex related. I agree it's good to share awareness of these problems. However, I think there's nothing more for me to do. None of my female coworkers have ever reported something fishy, and if they did I'd simply report it to HR where I know the situation would be handled. I also wonder if it'd be productive to stop singling out tech (which seems much less sexist than say, finance).
DoreenMichele 9y ago
As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. The single most powerful thing you can do is engage women as serious professionals. My biggest frustration is not with the guys who want to talk to me to hit on me. It is with the countless others who will not engage me in a substantive manner for fear of it being misconstrued. They de facto leave me alone with the creeps, trolls and assholes and are, on some level, equally guilty of treating me as nothing but a vagina. It gives far too much weight to my gender and far too little to my education, skills, competence, interests and character. Whether a man is talking to me solely in hopes of a hookup or avoiding me for fear of offending or something, he is equally guilty of treating me like the single most important thing about me, the thing that drives all social decisions, is what bits are between my legs. This is the essence of sexism.
- msie 9y ago
  Whether a man is talking to me solely in hopes of a hookup or avoiding me for fear of offending or something, he is equally guilty I have a problem with that statement.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - matte_black 9y ago
    Agreed, there is no way the guilt there is equal.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      Your statement and the one above are part of the problem, not part of the solution. My mind boggles that you are fine with arguing that your guilt is lesser, thus somehow apparently okay in your mind. This is exactly why progress is so painfully slow. For every one man pushing a woman into the river to intentionally drown her, a thousand more stand idly by and say "Not my problem" and then worry vastly more about defending their right to do nothing than about the injustice they witness daily.
Aunche 9y ago
What happened to just letting people deal with their own problems? A lot of people work with managers and coworkers who treat them unfairly, and you can't do anything about it besides be a good person yourself. Sure, women have an even harder time, but that's going to change as society continues to shift as more culturally progressive. Until then, sexist people are going to continue to be sexist.
- eropple 9y ago
  I would appreciate if you would explain to me why it is acceptable to ignore injustice because there are other injustices you think you can't do anything about.
  - Aunche 9y ago
    These are relatively small and very personal problems. The media portrays it as some great social injustice when it's really just a few people making rude comments. The author claims that we should all be more supportive of women in CS, but there's already a lot of support. At some point, you just have to wait for people to help themselves.
    - urahara 9y ago
      Women having it harder and sexism are small and very personal problems? It's just not true, things are right the opposite. If there was enough support the described situations would not be the norm. It is not enough support until it completely stops. And even then, women will not be compensated for huge damage already done to them, and will still need support due to this fact.
InclinedPlane 9y ago
Simply work to continue educating yourself and try adding new helpful behaviors one at a time. For example, women are much more likely to be interrupted when they are speaking. Learn to recognize this, learn to stop doing it if you're doing so but more importantly learn to stand up for women when it happens. All it takes is "excuse me, I believe X was talking, I'd like to hear what she has to say before moving on". Just like that.
gerbilly 9y ago
> As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. If you witness this kind of behaviour, denounce it publicly.
oldandtired 9y ago
I think you miss the bigger picture here. As for being clueless, well, here is a suggestion. If you see some man hitting on or trying to dominate a woman, you can approach both and just intrude yourself into the conversation. It should be possible to change the course of the interaction by redirecting things (including asking about some relevant conference or workplace activities). Do it in a way that says to the man that you are ignorant of goals, frustrate the living daylights out of him. It is irrelevant if the recipient of the unwanted attention is a women or a man, protection and respect is something that should be applied to all. Protecting women (children and other men) from danger is a characteristic of what it is to be a man, that is one of our functions. This is not a function of equality. The same goes for women - if they are in a position to provide protection for other women, children or men, then do so. It is a part of who women are. Men are deadly and rightly so, they should be. Deadly to protect those who need protecting. Women are fierce and dangerous and rightly so, they should be. Fierce and dangerous to protect those who need protecting. Men and women are different and that is a good thing. Without each other, this world would be a sadder, darker and more injurious place. There will be those who have no care for anyone other than themselves, these will abuse and destroy anyone else they can to get ahead. It is up to all of us to counteract these individuals when we have the opportunity. The base problem is that people do not know how to respect and protect one another. Respect is not about equality, it is about recognising the differences between people (including the differences between men and women) and honouring each other. Equality of the sexes is a farcical mindset. Men and women are complimentary, each providing what the other doesn't have to produce a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. Each looks at things in a different light and that is to the advantage of us all.
kradeelav 9y ago
Most of the time it's not even reacting to something; simply taking the time and effort in mentoring a bright lady is another shield in the bulwark to this nonsense. As a personal example, I have the deepest respect for one of my former (male, obviously) bosses who took a chance on me and fed me high-profile projects despite being a double/triple minority. (I hate the need to disclaim that last bit, but y'know, take it as illustrating the situation). Not a single interaction was awkward - there were group meetings aplenty, professional one-on-ones, silly one-on-ones where we were both cracking up at corporate shenanigans, water-cooler chats to triage the crazy amount of work we were getting, y'know, normal stuff. Good people exist, and there can be light moments too. Not all of this has to be The Most Srs. He left a few years later due to natural company reorgs, but that extra limb out is something that's remembered quite dearly. Just standing by wouldn't have cut it.

stewartjarod 9y ago

I feel exactly the same way and have faced similar thoughts. If nothing happens I assume no offense was taken and move on I guess... but sometimes that bothers me more.

droopybuns 9y ago

Maybe do what you think is right and be quick to apologize if it is appropriate. Edit: I am absolutely baffled by the downvotes. What am I missing?

msie 9y ago

Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it. I would feel intimidated walking up to a group of women because I might be criticized for anything I did. And wouldn't a woman feel intimidated walking up to a group of men too?

gowld 9y ago
Yes, and that's part of the problem to solve.
- msie 9y ago
  And it's hard enough for me to approach groups of men, let alone groups of women.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

eropple 9y ago

> The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views When I have been in these situations, the root problem has been someone being shitty to a friend/colleague/co-worker/whatever. Saying "that's shitty, stop" doesn't mean you're speaking for any particular person or that you're defending her person specifically--what you are doing, and you can explain if asked, is that you are establishing social norms with your behavior that you are telling the group that you expect everybody to follow. There are many axes along which one can be shitty, and it is not a reinforcement of patriarchal structures to set expectations that people be decent to one another--so long, of course, as you're doing so evenly. I have gone hard at co-workers who were shitty to women. I have also gone hard at co-workers who were jerks in code reviews. What I quoted strikes me as perhaps a misapplication of the idea of patriarchy and what it does to society--at least, in the sort of case you're describing. Could this be taken to an extreme that would validate your concerns? Totally. But in practice? It never has been the case for me (and I am solicitous about asking if I am out of my lane). It is important to be willing to listen, in case that, yes, you are out of your lane--but I have never seen a default posture of "no, we don't allow shitty behavior up in here" cause friction with anybody it shouldn't cause friction with.

msie 9y ago

This reminds me of a tweet thread I read today where it seemed the guy was unnecessarily lambasted for raising a question to a feminist: https://twitter.com/akaij/status/968968751063490562 https://twitter.com/akaij/status/968968751063490562 Kelly Ellis: "But, y'know, thanks for being the dude chiming in with unnecessary remarks intended to undermine both my point, and the plaintiff's lawsuit, while we discuss the topic of gender-based discrimination and harassment. Super helpful and appreciated." akay: "not at all what I was trying to do, sorry if it came across that way. I just don't see how confirming the existence of nerf guns within that team helps the discussion in any way. unnecessarily harsh, this tweet." So sometimes we men just remain silent.

IntronExon 9y ago
Let’s be a bit more intellectually honest and not compare the dumpster fire of Twitter, to the workplace. Dumpster fire: http://variety.com/2018/digital/news/twitter-ceo-abuse-1202714236/ http://variety.com/2018/digital/news/twitter-ceo-abuse-12027...
- msie 9y ago
  This seemed like a legitimate interaction. Do you know otherwise?
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    I have a problem with that statement. Still it’s good to see thst your first instinct is military grade handwaving. I have to wonder if you have similarly high standards in all cssss, or if your skepticism is reserved primarily as a means of deflection. All of which is to say thst you could actually trust the people telling you their stories in the article, or discuss the underlying issues, rather than deflect via nitpicking. It’s grotesque. This whole thread, the voting patterns, the flagging of the article, and the sheer force of whining from people who feel put upon by hearing about this is also grotesque... More than it would be on another site, where at least stupidity and lack of education could be an excuse. Edit: I mean, look at this thread and compare it here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16497551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16497551 It would be funny, if it weren’t so childishly obvious.

alexandercrohde 9y ago

I think this is a really honest point. I'd also like to springboard off of it. As the authors point out, many men are shocked by these stories. I am too. I've been in tech 10 years or so (mostly startups) and have a lot of semi-abusive stuff to report, but none of it that I've seen is gender/sex related. I agree it's good to share awareness of these problems. However, I think there's nothing more for me to do. None of my female coworkers have ever reported something fishy, and if they did I'd simply report it to HR where I know the situation would be handled. I also wonder if it'd be productive to stop singling out tech (which seems much less sexist than say, finance).

DoreenMichele 9y ago

As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. The single most powerful thing you can do is engage women as serious professionals. My biggest frustration is not with the guys who want to talk to me to hit on me. It is with the countless others who will not engage me in a substantive manner for fear of it being misconstrued. They de facto leave me alone with the creeps, trolls and assholes and are, on some level, equally guilty of treating me as nothing but a vagina. It gives far too much weight to my gender and far too little to my education, skills, competence, interests and character. Whether a man is talking to me solely in hopes of a hookup or avoiding me for fear of offending or something, he is equally guilty of treating me like the single most important thing about me, the thing that drives all social decisions, is what bits are between my legs. This is the essence of sexism.

msie 9y ago
Whether a man is talking to me solely in hopes of a hookup or avoiding me for fear of offending or something, he is equally guilty I have a problem with that statement.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- matte_black 9y ago
  Agreed, there is no way the guilt there is equal.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    Your statement and the one above are part of the problem, not part of the solution. My mind boggles that you are fine with arguing that your guilt is lesser, thus somehow apparently okay in your mind. This is exactly why progress is so painfully slow. For every one man pushing a woman into the river to intentionally drown her, a thousand more stand idly by and say "Not my problem" and then worry vastly more about defending their right to do nothing than about the injustice they witness daily.

Aunche 9y ago

What happened to just letting people deal with their own problems? A lot of people work with managers and coworkers who treat them unfairly, and you can't do anything about it besides be a good person yourself. Sure, women have an even harder time, but that's going to change as society continues to shift as more culturally progressive. Until then, sexist people are going to continue to be sexist.

eropple 9y ago
I would appreciate if you would explain to me why it is acceptable to ignore injustice because there are other injustices you think you can't do anything about.
- Aunche 9y ago
  These are relatively small and very personal problems. The media portrays it as some great social injustice when it's really just a few people making rude comments. The author claims that we should all be more supportive of women in CS, but there's already a lot of support. At some point, you just have to wait for people to help themselves.
  - urahara 9y ago
    Women having it harder and sexism are small and very personal problems? It's just not true, things are right the opposite. If there was enough support the described situations would not be the norm. It is not enough support until it completely stops. And even then, women will not be compensated for huge damage already done to them, and will still need support due to this fact.

InclinedPlane 9y ago

Simply work to continue educating yourself and try adding new helpful behaviors one at a time. For example, women are much more likely to be interrupted when they are speaking. Learn to recognize this, learn to stop doing it if you're doing so but more importantly learn to stand up for women when it happens. All it takes is "excuse me, I believe X was talking, I'd like to hear what she has to say before moving on". Just like that.

gerbilly 9y ago

> As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. If you witness this kind of behaviour, denounce it publicly.

oldandtired 9y ago

I think you miss the bigger picture here. As for being clueless, well, here is a suggestion. If you see some man hitting on or trying to dominate a woman, you can approach both and just intrude yourself into the conversation. It should be possible to change the course of the interaction by redirecting things (including asking about some relevant conference or workplace activities). Do it in a way that says to the man that you are ignorant of goals, frustrate the living daylights out of him. It is irrelevant if the recipient of the unwanted attention is a women or a man, protection and respect is something that should be applied to all. Protecting women (children and other men) from danger is a characteristic of what it is to be a man, that is one of our functions. This is not a function of equality. The same goes for women - if they are in a position to provide protection for other women, children or men, then do so. It is a part of who women are. Men are deadly and rightly so, they should be. Deadly to protect those who need protecting. Women are fierce and dangerous and rightly so, they should be. Fierce and dangerous to protect those who need protecting. Men and women are different and that is a good thing. Without each other, this world would be a sadder, darker and more injurious place. There will be those who have no care for anyone other than themselves, these will abuse and destroy anyone else they can to get ahead. It is up to all of us to counteract these individuals when we have the opportunity. The base problem is that people do not know how to respect and protect one another. Respect is not about equality, it is about recognising the differences between people (including the differences between men and women) and honouring each other. Equality of the sexes is a farcical mindset. Men and women are complimentary, each providing what the other doesn't have to produce a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. Each looks at things in a different light and that is to the advantage of us all.

kradeelav 9y ago

Most of the time it's not even reacting to something; simply taking the time and effort in mentoring a bright lady is another shield in the bulwark to this nonsense. As a personal example, I have the deepest respect for one of my former (male, obviously) bosses who took a chance on me and fed me high-profile projects despite being a double/triple minority. (I hate the need to disclaim that last bit, but y'know, take it as illustrating the situation). Not a single interaction was awkward - there were group meetings aplenty, professional one-on-ones, silly one-on-ones where we were both cracking up at corporate shenanigans, water-cooler chats to triage the crazy amount of work we were getting, y'know, normal stuff. Good people exist, and there can be light moments too. Not all of this has to be The Most Srs. He left a few years later due to natural company reorgs, but that extra limb out is something that's remembered quite dearly. Just standing by wouldn't have cut it.