16 ms·

What Happens to Us Does Not Happen to Most of You

265 points by RMarcus 9y ago

tomc1985 9y ago
Can we please just bury the folks out there doing treating their peers this way? Throw them all out like the trash they are. It is so fucking stupid how we human beings have to insert our stupid thoughts and desires into everything. You'll never get rid of aggressive behavior because once people start intuitively judging people, especially over those they think are below them, it is impossible to get them to stop. And jesus has nobody learned to not shit where you eat? Save it for Tinder.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  They’ve learned that every time women speak up, there will be a dozen people with “theories” about why they’re lying, why it doesn’t matter, or why they’re not involved. Another dozen will opine about “inherent differences” in the sexes to explain differences in STEM employment, and another dozen will divert the conversation to some flavor of, “well that happens to guys too!” There’s a script that plays out, an exhausting and predictable script of denial, dismissive commentary, and deflection. So what people learn is that they can get away with it, because usually they do. Not only can they get away with it, but dozens will leap to their defense. Watch how this thread unfolds, and compare them to previous ones. Look at the eagerness with which any suggestion that women are less suited for STEM than men is gobbled up and reposted to death. After a while people realize that STEM is full of people who use their brains to make disingenuous arguments to cover their ideological asses. Edit: ...And now you’ve been flagged to death, meaning 10+ people flagged you in 10 minutes or less. I’m not even a little surprised.
  - JulianMorrison 9y ago
    This is truth and it got greyed out because people here don't like to face criticism.
  - pluto9 9y ago
    Another dozen will opine about “inherent differences” in the sexes to explain differences in STEM employment And yet another dozen will opine about how there are no such inherent differences, a far more evidence-free assertion.
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    So thats why my post shows up collapsed. Of course I got flagged. That's how the passive-aggressive asshole brigade fights back
    - pluto9 9y ago
      You're right, it would be more constructive for them to respond with name-calling and vitriol instead. But that sort of thing tends to get flagged here.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    Intron, you were right. Two hours later the HN front page has replaced this sexism story with a story about discrimination against men in favour of women.
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      I wish I hadn’t called it accurately, but yeah, the pattern once seen is hard to unsee. Taken individually it can be mistaken for sincerity gone awry, but in an ensemble over time, boom. The system here works really well for a lot of things; spam is often DOA for example! The mods though, can’t change the character of the people themselves. I try to tell myself that a lot of the predictable, negative outcomes amount to blowback in the face of real and inevitable change though. I hope I’m right about that too.
      - robotresearcher 9y ago
        I learned something from you today, thanks. It's like putting on the glasses in They Live. I commented on the other thread to give you props. For what it's worth.
    - Slansitartop 9y ago
      And those stories were flagged to death, too...
      - IntronExon 9y ago
        The third or fourth time they hit the front page? Oh look, it’s back again and already has 6 points. lol https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16506914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16506914 Jesus Christ.
- cimmanom 9y ago
  In addition to IntronExon's points, the very headline of the article points out that these experiences don't happen as often to men. And they generally happen out of the sight of other men. Thus even the men who are aware of the presence of bad actors are sometimes blind to how many of them there are, just how horrible their actions are, and more importantly who the bad actors are. And because of this, a) it's harder to grasp the extent and severity of the problem; b) they may not know whose behavior needs to be corrected; and c) they may rationalize or deny a bad actor's misbehavior when someone does point it out because their experiences with him have been positive, so the accusation causes cognitive dissonance.
  - eropple 9y ago
    > And they generally happen out of the sight of other men. Some does. Others don't. In my experience it is very common for privileged folks who feel that they are of lower status to try to exert some (generally undue) authority or dominance in group settings, usually by ha-ha-only-serious'ing nasty jokes at people who they feel that can be superior towards. Women, ESL folks, ethnic minorities--you get the idea. And the article makes mention of this--calling another employee "token", that sort of thing. On the other end of the ladder, I've tangled with quite a few people in managerial and executive roles that thought that their, again, ha-ha-only-serious racism and sexism was somehow Not A Problem. It's not just that it's pervasive--it's that we've allowed, for a very long time, the sorts of social shittiness that are sometimes termed "microaggressions" to set the tone for the social arrangements (and work is a social arrangement) in which we all participate with varying degrees of willingness and autonomy. The little stuff in public creates permission structures for the big nasty stuff in private.
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    > Thus even the men who are aware of the presence of bad actors are sometimes blind to how many of them there are, just how horrible their actions are, and more importantly who the bad actors are. This. And as a man I am sick of it. I want nothing but the best for the women in my life, and the powerlessness of this situation makes me angry. We men are stubborn motherfuckers and it is rare for to meet someone like what is described in the post and also who seems ready/willing/able to changeinto treating others respectfully. Hence the trash bit -- just fucking throw them out. So many of us want to get back to solving relevant problems. Interpersonal shit like this keeps coming up in our community and it needs to just. fucking. stop.
sweden 9y ago
I just wish that when people talk about these stories, they would highlight the country where they are writing them from. As someone living in Europe (who lived and worked in one of more country), some of these "cultural" aspects against a certain gender feel so much out of place. In particular, expecting someone who is pregnant to quit the job is just unthinkable. Most engineering work places in Europe expect the person to take paternity/maternity leave and take care of the children but the job will be secured. I'm not saying that gender descrimination doesn't happen in Europe but I feel that the US have a lot of more of these extreme and ridiculous scenarios.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  There is a lot that American business culture could and should learn from Europe
- jtmcmc 9y ago
  this is in part due to the lack of legal requirements around parental leave in the US (don't think that I'm apologizing for this behavior - but I do think that is one contributing factor)
- sampo 9y ago
  > they would highlight the country where they are writing them from If people don't mention their country, they're American.
- wu_tang_chris 9y ago
  it's pretty safe to assume they're talking about the US. quit whining.
- strictfp 9y ago
  Speaking as a Swede, that is not entirely true in my experience. It's still expensive for employers and they don't like hiring women who will soon be pregnant.Or their men for that matter, but those are harder to spot :) I have female friends who changed jobs just before getting pregnant or visibly pregnant, and those employers were not happy.
MollyR 9y ago
I don't like how they buried what I consider the lede. "For the authors of this article, each negative story is overshadowed by dozens of positive experiences, where someone went out of their way to offer support, provide opportunities, and encourage us." I think this matters to encouraging both women and men. Yes, jerks exist. Sometimes its good people having bad days, some people are monsters hiding under a veneer (ex Hollywood's Weinstein). We need to stop dehumanizing each other, and understand all humans have the full expanse of positive and negative emotions. Most people in technology are not bros, sjws, ceos, and whatever. They are just people trying to get by.
- huebnerob 9y ago
  Does it matter to a woman whether their harasser is a "real" bad guy or they're just accidentally doing a good job at playing one? The idea that us 'good' men can have a bad day, misstep, or misinterpret things is definitely true, but the following idea that it some how disqualifies the action as harassment is very much not. If you don't want to be put in a bucket with Harvey Weinstein, then you need to realize that everyone has the capability to be the villain sometimes, and if you've found yourself toeing that line, you need to strongly consider what brought you there and you need to make amends in the right way.
  - cyanexttuesday 9y ago
    So you want blame all men for what the authors even noted is a small few ?
    - newfoundglory 9y ago
      That's not how I read the comment and in fact seems almost unrelated.
    - eropple 9y ago
      You need not abuse women to bear some responsibility for the culture where it's tacitly okay to do so. #MeToo was nothing new; these problems were obvious to me as far back as my first job and while I've done what I've been able to do when it's arisen it has certainly not been an effort about which I have seen more than token work from the male-dominated, male-directed structures of power in tech and elsewhere. Doing nothing makes you complicit; to not be complicit, you need to do some work. But, then, your username has an obvious allusion in it that made me look at your posting history--and suddenly I understand what you are trying to project when you Just Ask Questions on this one.
evrydayhustling 9y ago
During my PhD work I often accompanied my advisor in presenting her lab's research (not only or even mainly mine) to interested companies and governments. She was an incredibly accomplished, tenured faculty member who had pulled together a massive research team (and budget) at a top research University. I was a 22 year old white guy with a BS. But many many times, I found government and industry types addressing comments, questions, and even follow-up requests almost exclusively to me. I tried to imagine what it was like to tough out that culture back when she was a grad student or junior faculty, long before this was a even a major topic of discussion. I wussed out of the grind I would have faced as a junior faculty, even sporting all the right aesthetics. To those who have stuck it out against major challenges: you are tough as nails, you are improving the system, and it is noticed by and impacts more people than you think.
reuven 9y ago
These stories upset me deeply. But as much as they upset me, they surprise me. And that's because until it was just recently, after 20+ years in the computer industry, that I discovered how pervasive such behavior is. I'm not happy that such stories take place. But I am happy that a growing number of women are telling their stories, shocking those of us who were able to be blissfully ignorant of what was going on, and forcing us to realize just how poorly our female colleagues are sometimes being treated. Let's even assume that 90% of the time, things are great for women in high tech. How many women are willing to put up with even 10% (or even 1%) of their time dealing with such behavior? I'm not sure if I would. And then we wonder why so many women aren't interested in technology careers, or leave after a short period of time. I hope that these stories eventually end. But in order for them to end, we need to hear more of them, to realize just how bad things are, and to make it completely unacceptable, in every way, for things to continue as they currently are.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > Let's even assume that 90% of the time, things are great for women in high tech. How many women are willing to put up with even 10% (or even 1%) of their time dealing with such behavior? I'm not sure if I would. And then we wonder why so many women aren't interested in technology careers, or leave after a short period of time. This is backwards. In fields women are interested in (say, dancing), they face much more harassment, because their greater interest and the increased competition from other women raise the bar for behavior that will drive them away. Donald Trump has been accused of walking into the changing rooms at his beauty pageants. How many female engineers do you think would tolerate the boss repeatedly walking in on them naked? But a lot of girls would really, really like to be beauty queens.
- ethbro 9y ago
  > to make it completely unacceptable, in every way, for things to continue as they currently are This seems key. Especially if it's "relatively rare but intensely negative events" (as seems to be the case). Imagine if for every one of these stories, a colleague of the person dealing with discrimination or peer of the discriminator had tapped them on the shoulder and said, "Professor, what the fuck are you doing? That's sexist, and you're a terrible human for having done that." And imagine if after three times of the above their peers had said "This is a pattern of behavior with you. We'd feel better if the department were headed by someone with different values." Discrimination survives on awkward tolerance.
shorttime 9y ago
As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. I certainly don't make any comments of similar nature or perform actions described in the stories. However, if I were to observe such an event happening, I'd be frozen. One half of me thinks, the woman is an individual and can stand up for herself. If she's uncomfortable, she'll say or do something. She's of equal standing. The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views, protecting women from the danger. Women wouldn't be considered an equal in this scenario.
- stewartjarod 9y ago
  I feel exactly the same way and have faced similar thoughts. If nothing happens I assume no offense was taken and move on I guess... but sometimes that bothers me more.
- droopybuns 9y ago
  Maybe do what you think is right and be quick to apologize if it is appropriate. Edit: I am absolutely baffled by the downvotes. What am I missing?
- msie 9y ago
  Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it. I would feel intimidated walking up to a group of women because I might be criticized for anything I did. And wouldn't a woman feel intimidated walking up to a group of men too?
  - gowld 9y ago
    Yes, and that's part of the problem to solve.
    - msie 9y ago
      And it's hard enough for me to approach groups of men, let alone groups of women.
cbeach 9y ago
> Are you the token woman? Are you qualified?” > a manager at Microsoft told me I was only hired because I was a woman. > “You must have had a lot of offers because you are black.” I’m not in any way condoning this sexist/racist behaviour. But statements like these reflect the fact that “affirmative action,” “positive discrimination,” quotas etc are HURTING women, by creating prejudice against them. Some want to solve tech gender disparity by “engineering” an equality of outcome. The harm done by these social engineers will last for generations.
- mkeedlinger 9y ago
  I think I agree. Often I can't really tell the difference between affirmative action and reverse racism. I'll admit that I am often ignorant, but if the quest is equality (which I am all for) then affirmative action (or essentially making two people of different races not equal for only the reason of race) seems damaging. Those are my honest thoughts, please don't destroy me. I see you were flagged and I'm not sure why, I think you present thought provoking points, and while I tend to agree, I would even like to see the views of those who disagree, not sure why they wouldn't want to see yours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - cbeach 9y ago
    I’m really sad at the deterioration of the HN community into a place where reasonable and inoffensive comments are flagged and downvoted simply because people disagree on a political level. I’ve found myself spending less time on HN. Other discussion communities are more inclusive and more diverse - and by that I mean the only meaningful flavour of diversity - diversity of opinion.
    - hailk 9y ago
      > Other discussion communities are more inclusive and more diverse - and by that I mean the only meaningful flavour of diversity - diversity of opinion. Would you mind sharing. The HN hive-mind has started getting to me lately. If I wanted to see well-intentioned, well-reasoned but fairly unpopular conversations being flagged and shut down, and illogical popular opinions up-voted to the top, I'd rather go to FB or some other place.
IntronExon 9y ago
The comment section on this one is both depressing, and utterly predictable. The brigading, the “but’s” and the use of the article as a flimsy ideological springboard to make really asinine points. It’s good to see people expressing their dismay and surprise too, and hopefully over time those voices will become louder. We’re still a ways from an article like this being met with something more constructive than the usual deflections, excuses, and ideological fights. We’re still stuck with arguments that wouldn’t have been out of place during various civil rights and suffragette movements. It’s coming though, and I for one can’t wait. It’s just sad that we’re missing out on the talents of many women who make a rational choice to avoid STEM and it’s frequn toxic culture of asocial/antisocial asses. It’s sad that a site full of bright, educated poeple can still so frequtmly come off as a pack of deflecting, equivocating, terrified boys. Everyone involved deserves better than this. So speak up, take a risk, and most of all act like and be someone that other people know would stand up for them. Be the kind of person who an absuive prick would never think of saying or doing what’s described in this article, around. Talk to and listen to your coworkers, and try to have some ideals beyond personal advancement.
abacate 9y ago
There are a lot of disturbing things in these stories, but I also see a lot of remarks about situations that have a number of alternative explanations besides sexism. For instance: > Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it. Yes, indeed, and there are a number of reasons for this. From my point of view, I would avoid approaching a group of women talking by themselves since I'd be the odd one out. > My “mentor” told me he had never worked with a woman before and wasn’t sure how to talk to me. I suggested he try talking to me like a person. Depending on the tone, it may mean something completely different than what you are trying to say. In fact, to me, it looks to me like he was talking about an insecurity he has, and it's not directly related to you... and you are tagging this as sexism. Long story short, there is a clear line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and that is respect. It's clear that this line was crossed in a number of times in these stories, but just because you are in a position where you didn't like something doesn't mean the line was automatically crossed.
- eropple 9y ago
  > From my point of view, I would avoid approaching a group of women talking by themselves since I'd be the odd one out. Women in male-dominated workplaces already feel like this every day. I would submit that, while it is important to be cognizant that there are cases in which you may be intruding[0], the overwhelming majority of situations that's really not likely to be the case. It's work. You're working. Joining co-workers to talk about work is fine and overthinking it will bite you. [0] - and yes, this may be identity-based and that may in a vacuum feel unfair, but we've held most of the cards for the run of human history and we can deal with it.
  - abacate 9y ago
    > Women in male-dominated workplaces already feel like this every day. Note that "work" and "conference" are two very different environments. I have no problem joining co-workers in a conversation.
- gowld 9y ago
saas_co_de 9y ago
I don't think the tech industry can really change unless it makes gender balance a priority. How many tech CEOs will stand up and say: "I have an 80% (or 90% or a 100%) male tech team because there are not enough qualified women to achieve gender balance." No CEO will be caught dead saying that explicitly but they are saying it implicitly every single day with how they are staffing their companies. From reading HN it seems like a large percentage of people here believe that the gender gap is due to a qualifications gap and they might dump on people like James Damore for being dumb enough to say it in public but most of them believe it and the way they act shows it. The bottom line is that if you are not achieving gender balance on your teams what you are telling women and what you are telling the world is that you believe men are superior to women and that women are not qualified for these jobs. Actions speak louder than words and as long as the actions of companies and individuals reflect this attitude no amount of words is going to change anything. Achieving gender balance in tech is possible and is only a matter of choice. There are more than enough qualified women to fill tech jobs in roughly equal proportion with men. It doesn't happen because (among other reasons): 1) The people doing the hiring are overwhelmingly men and set rules and standards for hiring that discriminate against women 2) Companies believe that young men are more profitable employees and so they do nothing to seriously discourage discrimination Unless this changes the experience of women in tech will be a negative one. All a woman has to do to know that she is undervalued and seen as an inferior is walk into a company that has a overwhelmingly male tech team and that is most of them.
- mkeedlinger 9y ago
  While I can't speak for others, I'm not sure that most people here think there is a gender gap because of inability on the part of women, but instead maybe a difference in general interests between the sexes. I'm also not so sure about your claim that "there are more than enough qualified women to fill tech jobs in roughly equal proportion with men." I rarely have the chance to talk to women who are similarly interested in computers, and at my university there are very few women who are in any of my CS classes, despite that I feel that those who are there feel welcome (hopefully. I am not all-knowing, this is my best guess). I think a better solution to the problem than pressuring people into hiring women simply for the virtue of being female and aiming for 50% would be to call sexism what it is. Call out when people who do the bad of hiring a less qualified man instead of a woman (this is a contrived example, hopefully you're understanding my point). Solving sexism with more sexism probably won't work. These are my honest thoughts, hope that's ok.
mirimir 9y ago
It's depressing that I remember exactly this shit from my time in US academia. Not about me, being a man, but what I saw, and what my woman friends shared with me. I recall a woman who didn't get tenure, because she was the only woman in the department, and had no friends to support her. I recall female grad students who were sexually assaulted by their advisers. Some of whom were on my thesis committee, and were great mentors. It's just so fucking sad that it's still so common, decades later :(
cbeach 9y ago
A forlorn goodbye from me to HN. I’m sad at the deterioration of the HN community into a place where reasonable and inoffensive comments are flagged and downvoted simply because people disagree on a political level. I’ve found myself spending less time on HN due to this behaviour in the comments section. Other discussion communities are more inclusive and more diverse - and by that I mean the only meaningful flavour of diversity - diversity of opinion.
itissid 9y ago
I think there are two broad camps of thinking processes, one that fits people into stereotypes and does system 1 type of thinking. This camp believes in built in traits always lead to certain biases. They perpetuate those biases as well. While its true that exposure in young adulthood to certain things leads to bias to a certain extent, the main driver is YOU, your camp, which created those biases. Remember all those women that dropped out of the Software workforce in the 70's? Someone MADE those conditions happen. The lack of understanding that those biases can be reversed is what needs to be corrected. This is the other camp, the camp that understands this and proactively fixes things, that needs to be made bigger. I think, such things start very young. They starts in pre-schools where girls are given a doll and boys are given the lego blocks or children are not sensitized to color of the skin issues.
- gowld 9y ago
  > Remember all those women that dropped out of the Software workforce in the 70's? What's this?
  - toyg 9y ago
    A lot of the early CS-related workforce was actually made of women, because dealing with mainframes was originally seen as an extension of typing and shorthand (secretarial work traditionally reserved to women) with some math on top. Sometime around the early '70s / early '80s, the field morphed into the male-dominated world we see today. This has been discussed on HN in the past, usually in threads about female CS pioneers working at NASA and so on. I believe the consensus is that there wasn't a single individual cause for the change, but rather a number of conditions changed around the same time, discouraging women from CS-related jobs.
    - Trundle 9y ago
      The field morphing in to being male dominated and the existing women dropping out are two different things. Sure, what you're saying has been discussed plenty on HN. As far as I know the other posters statement hasn't.
  - 9y ago
kelvin0 9y ago
As a man I have no equivalent experience, so it's very difficult to judge. However, being in a mostly male environment the probabilities of encountering a 'dick' are very good. Should all 'dicks' be sent to the gulags? How can we stop them becoming/acting like 'dicks'? Enact tougher 'dick' laws? I really don't understand how this could ever be resolved. Talking about it seems like a start, but it really makes me feel like I am part of the problem as a man, and I don't feel this is positive tone to this conversation. Help?
- mkeedlinger 9y ago
  Being a man does not make you a part of the problem any more than being a woman makes you a victim. The behavior is what's bad, not being a male. This thought process is actually what we are trying to battle: being of one sex or race does not make you inherently better or worse than anyone else. I hope that there is a positive to find: that socially we can empower those who would otherwise be victims through our support. I'm not sure what exactly that looks like yet, but we're figuring that out. We're talking about it. That's positive :)
- Thriptic 9y ago
  I'm a guy (not that it matters in this context). You deal with all of this inappropriate behavior in the same way: you shit can the people responsible. They get a verbal warning the first time, and the second time they're gone. If people aren't fired or disciplined harshly for bad social behavior, it's sending the message that the behavior is an accepted part of the culture. At the end of the day, no one irreplaceable, and people internalize this message extremely quickly after 1-2 firings.
- gowld 9y ago
  Step 1. Don't be a jerk. Step 2. Think about if you might accidentally disrespecting people. Read stories like OP and think if you'd done something that was unintentionally hurtful. Step 3. Look out for abuse, and call it out where you see it. Step 4. Look out for people being overlooked and ignored, and give them a platform and a microphone (figuratively or literally).
- UncleMeat 9y ago
mcguire 9y ago
Kathryn McKinley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_S._McKinley?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_S._McKinley?wprov=sfla...
purplezooey 9y ago
A man I thought was a trusted colleague thought my first conference was the right place to make an agressive pass. Who tf are these people?
- plandis 9y ago
  Take it with a grain of salt. There are two sides to every story and in the current climate if you speak out as a man you get fired or have your image ruined. See Google, see Aziz.
- cmsonger 9y ago
  It's a fair question, but if #MeToo has done anything it's been to highlight that a reasonably high percentage of men will misuse positions of authority for sexual reasons. The answer is: some of our colleagues.
EGreg 9y ago
Many of these experiences are definitely ranging from unfortunate to terrible for women trying to simply have a productive career in a made dominated workplace. I just wanted to make a simple mathematical point, which the article kind of alludes to: the more X-dominated a field is, the more you would have run-ins with X, and thus more stories of inappropriate behavior by X. I wonder what stories guys have of joining female-dominated fields. Are they called the token guy? Do women make sexual remarks about them? The degree to which the answer is "yes" will be greatly affected by the imbalance in the first place. The bigger it is, the more likely they are to bump up against something bad in everyday life. Not saying we just have to accept this. Just saying we have to understand that no matter how much we all personally make an effort to act better, these stories will continue. So don't beat yourself up over it and continue to treat everyone as a fellow human being. And don't take it as a criticism of all men. The same phenomenon happens if you turn on the news and see crimes and murders all the time. That doesn't mean the city is overrun by crime but rather that the stories merited special attention. It doesn't mean YOU necessarily have to constantly keep in mind not to rob or murder someone.
hungerstrike 9y ago
Sounds like excluding people who get offended at every little comment is a better way of dealing with things.

265 points by RMarcus 9y ago

tomc1985 9y ago

Can we please just bury the folks out there doing treating their peers this way? Throw them all out like the trash they are. It is so fucking stupid how we human beings have to insert our stupid thoughts and desires into everything. You'll never get rid of aggressive behavior because once people start intuitively judging people, especially over those they think are below them, it is impossible to get them to stop. And jesus has nobody learned to not shit where you eat? Save it for Tinder.

IntronExon 9y ago
They’ve learned that every time women speak up, there will be a dozen people with “theories” about why they’re lying, why it doesn’t matter, or why they’re not involved. Another dozen will opine about “inherent differences” in the sexes to explain differences in STEM employment, and another dozen will divert the conversation to some flavor of, “well that happens to guys too!” There’s a script that plays out, an exhausting and predictable script of denial, dismissive commentary, and deflection. So what people learn is that they can get away with it, because usually they do. Not only can they get away with it, but dozens will leap to their defense. Watch how this thread unfolds, and compare them to previous ones. Look at the eagerness with which any suggestion that women are less suited for STEM than men is gobbled up and reposted to death. After a while people realize that STEM is full of people who use their brains to make disingenuous arguments to cover their ideological asses. Edit: ...And now you’ve been flagged to death, meaning 10+ people flagged you in 10 minutes or less. I’m not even a little surprised.
- JulianMorrison 9y ago
  This is truth and it got greyed out because people here don't like to face criticism.
- pluto9 9y ago
  Another dozen will opine about “inherent differences” in the sexes to explain differences in STEM employment And yet another dozen will opine about how there are no such inherent differences, a far more evidence-free assertion.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  So thats why my post shows up collapsed. Of course I got flagged. That's how the passive-aggressive asshole brigade fights back
  - pluto9 9y ago
    You're right, it would be more constructive for them to respond with name-calling and vitriol instead. But that sort of thing tends to get flagged here.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  Intron, you were right. Two hours later the HN front page has replaced this sexism story with a story about discrimination against men in favour of women.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    I wish I hadn’t called it accurately, but yeah, the pattern once seen is hard to unsee. Taken individually it can be mistaken for sincerity gone awry, but in an ensemble over time, boom. The system here works really well for a lot of things; spam is often DOA for example! The mods though, can’t change the character of the people themselves. I try to tell myself that a lot of the predictable, negative outcomes amount to blowback in the face of real and inevitable change though. I hope I’m right about that too.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      I learned something from you today, thanks. It's like putting on the glasses in They Live. I commented on the other thread to give you props. For what it's worth.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    And those stories were flagged to death, too...
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      The third or fourth time they hit the front page? Oh look, it’s back again and already has 6 points. lol https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16506914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16506914 Jesus Christ.
cimmanom 9y ago
In addition to IntronExon's points, the very headline of the article points out that these experiences don't happen as often to men. And they generally happen out of the sight of other men. Thus even the men who are aware of the presence of bad actors are sometimes blind to how many of them there are, just how horrible their actions are, and more importantly who the bad actors are. And because of this, a) it's harder to grasp the extent and severity of the problem; b) they may not know whose behavior needs to be corrected; and c) they may rationalize or deny a bad actor's misbehavior when someone does point it out because their experiences with him have been positive, so the accusation causes cognitive dissonance.
- eropple 9y ago
  > And they generally happen out of the sight of other men. Some does. Others don't. In my experience it is very common for privileged folks who feel that they are of lower status to try to exert some (generally undue) authority or dominance in group settings, usually by ha-ha-only-serious'ing nasty jokes at people who they feel that can be superior towards. Women, ESL folks, ethnic minorities--you get the idea. And the article makes mention of this--calling another employee "token", that sort of thing. On the other end of the ladder, I've tangled with quite a few people in managerial and executive roles that thought that their, again, ha-ha-only-serious racism and sexism was somehow Not A Problem. It's not just that it's pervasive--it's that we've allowed, for a very long time, the sorts of social shittiness that are sometimes termed "microaggressions" to set the tone for the social arrangements (and work is a social arrangement) in which we all participate with varying degrees of willingness and autonomy. The little stuff in public creates permission structures for the big nasty stuff in private.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  > Thus even the men who are aware of the presence of bad actors are sometimes blind to how many of them there are, just how horrible their actions are, and more importantly who the bad actors are. This. And as a man I am sick of it. I want nothing but the best for the women in my life, and the powerlessness of this situation makes me angry. We men are stubborn motherfuckers and it is rare for to meet someone like what is described in the post and also who seems ready/willing/able to changeinto treating others respectfully. Hence the trash bit -- just fucking throw them out. So many of us want to get back to solving relevant problems. Interpersonal shit like this keeps coming up in our community and it needs to just. fucking. stop.

sweden 9y ago

I just wish that when people talk about these stories, they would highlight the country where they are writing them from. As someone living in Europe (who lived and worked in one of more country), some of these "cultural" aspects against a certain gender feel so much out of place. In particular, expecting someone who is pregnant to quit the job is just unthinkable. Most engineering work places in Europe expect the person to take paternity/maternity leave and take care of the children but the job will be secured. I'm not saying that gender descrimination doesn't happen in Europe but I feel that the US have a lot of more of these extreme and ridiculous scenarios.

tomc1985 9y ago
There is a lot that American business culture could and should learn from Europe
jtmcmc 9y ago
this is in part due to the lack of legal requirements around parental leave in the US (don't think that I'm apologizing for this behavior - but I do think that is one contributing factor)
sampo 9y ago
> they would highlight the country where they are writing them from If people don't mention their country, they're American.
wu_tang_chris 9y ago
it's pretty safe to assume they're talking about the US. quit whining.
strictfp 9y ago
Speaking as a Swede, that is not entirely true in my experience. It's still expensive for employers and they don't like hiring women who will soon be pregnant.Or their men for that matter, but those are harder to spot :) I have female friends who changed jobs just before getting pregnant or visibly pregnant, and those employers were not happy.

MollyR 9y ago

I don't like how they buried what I consider the lede. "For the authors of this article, each negative story is overshadowed by dozens of positive experiences, where someone went out of their way to offer support, provide opportunities, and encourage us." I think this matters to encouraging both women and men. Yes, jerks exist. Sometimes its good people having bad days, some people are monsters hiding under a veneer (ex Hollywood's Weinstein). We need to stop dehumanizing each other, and understand all humans have the full expanse of positive and negative emotions. Most people in technology are not bros, sjws, ceos, and whatever. They are just people trying to get by.

huebnerob 9y ago
Does it matter to a woman whether their harasser is a "real" bad guy or they're just accidentally doing a good job at playing one? The idea that us 'good' men can have a bad day, misstep, or misinterpret things is definitely true, but the following idea that it some how disqualifies the action as harassment is very much not. If you don't want to be put in a bucket with Harvey Weinstein, then you need to realize that everyone has the capability to be the villain sometimes, and if you've found yourself toeing that line, you need to strongly consider what brought you there and you need to make amends in the right way.
- cyanexttuesday 9y ago
  So you want blame all men for what the authors even noted is a small few ?
  - newfoundglory 9y ago
    That's not how I read the comment and in fact seems almost unrelated.
  - eropple 9y ago
    You need not abuse women to bear some responsibility for the culture where it's tacitly okay to do so. #MeToo was nothing new; these problems were obvious to me as far back as my first job and while I've done what I've been able to do when it's arisen it has certainly not been an effort about which I have seen more than token work from the male-dominated, male-directed structures of power in tech and elsewhere. Doing nothing makes you complicit; to not be complicit, you need to do some work. But, then, your username has an obvious allusion in it that made me look at your posting history--and suddenly I understand what you are trying to project when you Just Ask Questions on this one.

evrydayhustling 9y ago

During my PhD work I often accompanied my advisor in presenting her lab's research (not only or even mainly mine) to interested companies and governments. She was an incredibly accomplished, tenured faculty member who had pulled together a massive research team (and budget) at a top research University. I was a 22 year old white guy with a BS. But many many times, I found government and industry types addressing comments, questions, and even follow-up requests almost exclusively to me. I tried to imagine what it was like to tough out that culture back when she was a grad student or junior faculty, long before this was a even a major topic of discussion. I wussed out of the grind I would have faced as a junior faculty, even sporting all the right aesthetics. To those who have stuck it out against major challenges: you are tough as nails, you are improving the system, and it is noticed by and impacts more people than you think.

reuven 9y ago

These stories upset me deeply. But as much as they upset me, they surprise me. And that's because until it was just recently, after 20+ years in the computer industry, that I discovered how pervasive such behavior is. I'm not happy that such stories take place. But I am happy that a growing number of women are telling their stories, shocking those of us who were able to be blissfully ignorant of what was going on, and forcing us to realize just how poorly our female colleagues are sometimes being treated. Let's even assume that 90% of the time, things are great for women in high tech. How many women are willing to put up with even 10% (or even 1%) of their time dealing with such behavior? I'm not sure if I would. And then we wonder why so many women aren't interested in technology careers, or leave after a short period of time. I hope that these stories eventually end. But in order for them to end, we need to hear more of them, to realize just how bad things are, and to make it completely unacceptable, in every way, for things to continue as they currently are.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
> Let's even assume that 90% of the time, things are great for women in high tech. How many women are willing to put up with even 10% (or even 1%) of their time dealing with such behavior? I'm not sure if I would. And then we wonder why so many women aren't interested in technology careers, or leave after a short period of time. This is backwards. In fields women are interested in (say, dancing), they face much more harassment, because their greater interest and the increased competition from other women raise the bar for behavior that will drive them away. Donald Trump has been accused of walking into the changing rooms at his beauty pageants. How many female engineers do you think would tolerate the boss repeatedly walking in on them naked? But a lot of girls would really, really like to be beauty queens.
ethbro 9y ago
> to make it completely unacceptable, in every way, for things to continue as they currently are This seems key. Especially if it's "relatively rare but intensely negative events" (as seems to be the case). Imagine if for every one of these stories, a colleague of the person dealing with discrimination or peer of the discriminator had tapped them on the shoulder and said, "Professor, what the fuck are you doing? That's sexist, and you're a terrible human for having done that." And imagine if after three times of the above their peers had said "This is a pattern of behavior with you. We'd feel better if the department were headed by someone with different values." Discrimination survives on awkward tolerance.

shorttime 9y ago

As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. I certainly don't make any comments of similar nature or perform actions described in the stories. However, if I were to observe such an event happening, I'd be frozen. One half of me thinks, the woman is an individual and can stand up for herself. If she's uncomfortable, she'll say or do something. She's of equal standing. The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views, protecting women from the danger. Women wouldn't be considered an equal in this scenario.

stewartjarod 9y ago
I feel exactly the same way and have faced similar thoughts. If nothing happens I assume no offense was taken and move on I guess... but sometimes that bothers me more.
droopybuns 9y ago
Maybe do what you think is right and be quick to apologize if it is appropriate. Edit: I am absolutely baffled by the downvotes. What am I missing?
msie 9y ago
Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it. I would feel intimidated walking up to a group of women because I might be criticized for anything I did. And wouldn't a woman feel intimidated walking up to a group of men too?
- gowld 9y ago
  Yes, and that's part of the problem to solve.
  - msie 9y ago
    And it's hard enough for me to approach groups of men, let alone groups of women.

cbeach 9y ago

> Are you the token woman? Are you qualified?” > a manager at Microsoft told me I was only hired because I was a woman. > “You must have had a lot of offers because you are black.” I’m not in any way condoning this sexist/racist behaviour. But statements like these reflect the fact that “affirmative action,” “positive discrimination,” quotas etc are HURTING women, by creating prejudice against them. Some want to solve tech gender disparity by “engineering” an equality of outcome. The harm done by these social engineers will last for generations.

mkeedlinger 9y ago
I think I agree. Often I can't really tell the difference between affirmative action and reverse racism. I'll admit that I am often ignorant, but if the quest is equality (which I am all for) then affirmative action (or essentially making two people of different races not equal for only the reason of race) seems damaging. Those are my honest thoughts, please don't destroy me. I see you were flagged and I'm not sure why, I think you present thought provoking points, and while I tend to agree, I would even like to see the views of those who disagree, not sure why they wouldn't want to see yours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- cbeach 9y ago
  I’m really sad at the deterioration of the HN community into a place where reasonable and inoffensive comments are flagged and downvoted simply because people disagree on a political level. I’ve found myself spending less time on HN. Other discussion communities are more inclusive and more diverse - and by that I mean the only meaningful flavour of diversity - diversity of opinion.
  - hailk 9y ago
    > Other discussion communities are more inclusive and more diverse - and by that I mean the only meaningful flavour of diversity - diversity of opinion. Would you mind sharing. The HN hive-mind has started getting to me lately. If I wanted to see well-intentioned, well-reasoned but fairly unpopular conversations being flagged and shut down, and illogical popular opinions up-voted to the top, I'd rather go to FB or some other place.

IntronExon 9y ago

The comment section on this one is both depressing, and utterly predictable. The brigading, the “but’s” and the use of the article as a flimsy ideological springboard to make really asinine points. It’s good to see people expressing their dismay and surprise too, and hopefully over time those voices will become louder. We’re still a ways from an article like this being met with something more constructive than the usual deflections, excuses, and ideological fights. We’re still stuck with arguments that wouldn’t have been out of place during various civil rights and suffragette movements. It’s coming though, and I for one can’t wait. It’s just sad that we’re missing out on the talents of many women who make a rational choice to avoid STEM and it’s frequn toxic culture of asocial/antisocial asses. It’s sad that a site full of bright, educated poeple can still so frequtmly come off as a pack of deflecting, equivocating, terrified boys. Everyone involved deserves better than this. So speak up, take a risk, and most of all act like and be someone that other people know would stand up for them. Be the kind of person who an absuive prick would never think of saying or doing what’s described in this article, around. Talk to and listen to your coworkers, and try to have some ideals beyond personal advancement.

abacate 9y ago

There are a lot of disturbing things in these stories, but I also see a lot of remarks about situations that have a number of alternative explanations besides sexism. For instance: > Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it. Yes, indeed, and there are a number of reasons for this. From my point of view, I would avoid approaching a group of women talking by themselves since I'd be the odd one out. > My “mentor” told me he had never worked with a woman before and wasn’t sure how to talk to me. I suggested he try talking to me like a person. Depending on the tone, it may mean something completely different than what you are trying to say. In fact, to me, it looks to me like he was talking about an insecurity he has, and it's not directly related to you... and you are tagging this as sexism. Long story short, there is a clear line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and that is respect. It's clear that this line was crossed in a number of times in these stories, but just because you are in a position where you didn't like something doesn't mean the line was automatically crossed.

eropple 9y ago
> From my point of view, I would avoid approaching a group of women talking by themselves since I'd be the odd one out. Women in male-dominated workplaces already feel like this every day. I would submit that, while it is important to be cognizant that there are cases in which you may be intruding[0], the overwhelming majority of situations that's really not likely to be the case. It's work. You're working. Joining co-workers to talk about work is fine and overthinking it will bite you. [0] - and yes, this may be identity-based and that may in a vacuum feel unfair, but we've held most of the cards for the run of human history and we can deal with it.
- abacate 9y ago
  > Women in male-dominated workplaces already feel like this every day. Note that "work" and "conference" are two very different environments. I have no problem joining co-workers in a conversation.
gowld 9y ago

saas_co_de 9y ago

I don't think the tech industry can really change unless it makes gender balance a priority. How many tech CEOs will stand up and say: "I have an 80% (or 90% or a 100%) male tech team because there are not enough qualified women to achieve gender balance." No CEO will be caught dead saying that explicitly but they are saying it implicitly every single day with how they are staffing their companies. From reading HN it seems like a large percentage of people here believe that the gender gap is due to a qualifications gap and they might dump on people like James Damore for being dumb enough to say it in public but most of them believe it and the way they act shows it. The bottom line is that if you are not achieving gender balance on your teams what you are telling women and what you are telling the world is that you believe men are superior to women and that women are not qualified for these jobs. Actions speak louder than words and as long as the actions of companies and individuals reflect this attitude no amount of words is going to change anything. Achieving gender balance in tech is possible and is only a matter of choice. There are more than enough qualified women to fill tech jobs in roughly equal proportion with men. It doesn't happen because (among other reasons): 1) The people doing the hiring are overwhelmingly men and set rules and standards for hiring that discriminate against women 2) Companies believe that young men are more profitable employees and so they do nothing to seriously discourage discrimination Unless this changes the experience of women in tech will be a negative one. All a woman has to do to know that she is undervalued and seen as an inferior is walk into a company that has a overwhelmingly male tech team and that is most of them.

mkeedlinger 9y ago
While I can't speak for others, I'm not sure that most people here think there is a gender gap because of inability on the part of women, but instead maybe a difference in general interests between the sexes. I'm also not so sure about your claim that "there are more than enough qualified women to fill tech jobs in roughly equal proportion with men." I rarely have the chance to talk to women who are similarly interested in computers, and at my university there are very few women who are in any of my CS classes, despite that I feel that those who are there feel welcome (hopefully. I am not all-knowing, this is my best guess). I think a better solution to the problem than pressuring people into hiring women simply for the virtue of being female and aiming for 50% would be to call sexism what it is. Call out when people who do the bad of hiring a less qualified man instead of a woman (this is a contrived example, hopefully you're understanding my point). Solving sexism with more sexism probably won't work. These are my honest thoughts, hope that's ok.

mirimir 9y ago

It's depressing that I remember exactly this shit from my time in US academia. Not about me, being a man, but what I saw, and what my woman friends shared with me. I recall a woman who didn't get tenure, because she was the only woman in the department, and had no friends to support her. I recall female grad students who were sexually assaulted by their advisers. Some of whom were on my thesis committee, and were great mentors. It's just so fucking sad that it's still so common, decades later :(

cbeach 9y ago

A forlorn goodbye from me to HN. I’m sad at the deterioration of the HN community into a place where reasonable and inoffensive comments are flagged and downvoted simply because people disagree on a political level. I’ve found myself spending less time on HN due to this behaviour in the comments section. Other discussion communities are more inclusive and more diverse - and by that I mean the only meaningful flavour of diversity - diversity of opinion.

itissid 9y ago

I think there are two broad camps of thinking processes, one that fits people into stereotypes and does system 1 type of thinking. This camp believes in built in traits always lead to certain biases. They perpetuate those biases as well. While its true that exposure in young adulthood to certain things leads to bias to a certain extent, the main driver is YOU, your camp, which created those biases. Remember all those women that dropped out of the Software workforce in the 70's? Someone MADE those conditions happen. The lack of understanding that those biases can be reversed is what needs to be corrected. This is the other camp, the camp that understands this and proactively fixes things, that needs to be made bigger. I think, such things start very young. They starts in pre-schools where girls are given a doll and boys are given the lego blocks or children are not sensitized to color of the skin issues.

gowld 9y ago
> Remember all those women that dropped out of the Software workforce in the 70's? What's this?
- toyg 9y ago
  A lot of the early CS-related workforce was actually made of women, because dealing with mainframes was originally seen as an extension of typing and shorthand (secretarial work traditionally reserved to women) with some math on top. Sometime around the early '70s / early '80s, the field morphed into the male-dominated world we see today. This has been discussed on HN in the past, usually in threads about female CS pioneers working at NASA and so on. I believe the consensus is that there wasn't a single individual cause for the change, but rather a number of conditions changed around the same time, discouraging women from CS-related jobs.
  - Trundle 9y ago
    The field morphing in to being male dominated and the existing women dropping out are two different things. Sure, what you're saying has been discussed plenty on HN. As far as I know the other posters statement hasn't.
- 9y ago

kelvin0 9y ago

As a man I have no equivalent experience, so it's very difficult to judge. However, being in a mostly male environment the probabilities of encountering a 'dick' are very good. Should all 'dicks' be sent to the gulags? How can we stop them becoming/acting like 'dicks'? Enact tougher 'dick' laws? I really don't understand how this could ever be resolved. Talking about it seems like a start, but it really makes me feel like I am part of the problem as a man, and I don't feel this is positive tone to this conversation. Help?

mkeedlinger 9y ago
Being a man does not make you a part of the problem any more than being a woman makes you a victim. The behavior is what's bad, not being a male. This thought process is actually what we are trying to battle: being of one sex or race does not make you inherently better or worse than anyone else. I hope that there is a positive to find: that socially we can empower those who would otherwise be victims through our support. I'm not sure what exactly that looks like yet, but we're figuring that out. We're talking about it. That's positive :)
Thriptic 9y ago
I'm a guy (not that it matters in this context). You deal with all of this inappropriate behavior in the same way: you shit can the people responsible. They get a verbal warning the first time, and the second time they're gone. If people aren't fired or disciplined harshly for bad social behavior, it's sending the message that the behavior is an accepted part of the culture. At the end of the day, no one irreplaceable, and people internalize this message extremely quickly after 1-2 firings.
gowld 9y ago
Step 1. Don't be a jerk. Step 2. Think about if you might accidentally disrespecting people. Read stories like OP and think if you'd done something that was unintentionally hurtful. Step 3. Look out for abuse, and call it out where you see it. Step 4. Look out for people being overlooked and ignored, and give them a platform and a microphone (figuratively or literally).
UncleMeat 9y ago

mcguire 9y ago

Kathryn McKinley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_S._McKinley?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_S._McKinley?wprov=sfla...

purplezooey 9y ago

A man I thought was a trusted colleague thought my first conference was the right place to make an agressive pass. Who tf are these people?

plandis 9y ago
Take it with a grain of salt. There are two sides to every story and in the current climate if you speak out as a man you get fired or have your image ruined. See Google, see Aziz.
cmsonger 9y ago
It's a fair question, but if #MeToo has done anything it's been to highlight that a reasonably high percentage of men will misuse positions of authority for sexual reasons. The answer is: some of our colleagues.

EGreg 9y ago

Many of these experiences are definitely ranging from unfortunate to terrible for women trying to simply have a productive career in a made dominated workplace. I just wanted to make a simple mathematical point, which the article kind of alludes to: the more X-dominated a field is, the more you would have run-ins with X, and thus more stories of inappropriate behavior by X. I wonder what stories guys have of joining female-dominated fields. Are they called the token guy? Do women make sexual remarks about them? The degree to which the answer is "yes" will be greatly affected by the imbalance in the first place. The bigger it is, the more likely they are to bump up against something bad in everyday life. Not saying we just have to accept this. Just saying we have to understand that no matter how much we all personally make an effort to act better, these stories will continue. So don't beat yourself up over it and continue to treat everyone as a fellow human being. And don't take it as a criticism of all men. The same phenomenon happens if you turn on the news and see crimes and murders all the time. That doesn't mean the city is overrun by crime but rather that the stories merited special attention. It doesn't mean YOU necessarily have to constantly keep in mind not to rob or murder someone.

hungerstrike 9y ago

Sounds like excluding people who get offended at every little comment is a better way of dealing with things.