7 ms·

Launch HN: Temper (YC W18) – Get more sleep by blocking games at night

33 points by hanrelan 9y ago

Hi HN! We're Rohan and David, founders of Temper (https://www.temperapp.com https://www.temperapp.com). Temper is a desktop app we built to help gamers get more sleep by blocking games at night. You can set a schedule (eg. no games after 11pm) or set a daily time limit (eg. no more than 2 hours of gaming per day) and once you hit those limits, Temper will block you from playing more games until the next day. We know nobody wants to get blocked in the middle of a game and get an abandon, so unlike most blockers, Temper is game-aware and uses traditional computer vision (specifically, blob detection to identify elements) to ensure the block only activates once a game ends. We started Temper because we're gamers ourselves (over 5k hours of Dota 2 between us!) and believe games are positive experiences that can help you de-stress and keep in touch with friends. But we also realized that we regularly stayed up late at night playing just "one more game" instead of getting a healthy amount of sleep. After surveying other gamers and looking at the research, we discovered this was a really common phenomenon, with international studies reporting that 9% of gamers overuse video games. So we decided to build Temper to help people (and ourselves) maintain a healthier relationship with gaming. If you're a gamer who struggles with the same issue, please check us out and tell us what you think! It's Windows only for now and we support League of Legends, Dota 2, Heroes of the Storm, Overwatch, PUBG and Hearthstone. We're adding new games every week so if you have any requests let us know.

angryasian 9y ago
couldn't you just look at windows processes and keep track of how long its running based on when a user starts the timer. Really wouldn't an annoying timer do the job just as well ?
sparrish 9y ago
Please add FortNite
- hanrelan 9y ago
  That's next on our list!
Y_Y 9y ago
Do you need computer vision to tell a have is running? Do you need an app to prevent you paying games? Did you start a for-profit tech company just to "help" people?
- foxbarrington 9y ago
  The computer vision is not to detect if the game application is running, it's to detect if the game application is running and the user is in the middle of a "match". In other words, if the application can be shut down without negatively impacting the player's stats or team members. I don't think that whether or not someone "needs" an app for self-control is the question. It's whether or not outsourcing that self-control is useful. I've seen many comments from people who get benefit from blocking HN, reddit, and FB for specified periods of time.
- hanrelan 9y ago
  We don't need blob detection to tell us the game is running, but one of the core features of Temper is that it doesn't block you while you're in the middle of the game. To do that, we need to know when the game ends which we do by capturing the game screen and detecting when UI elements corresponding to the end of the game show up. Definitely not all gamers needs an app like Temper, but we have noticed a fair number of people (including ourselves) benefit from the additional nudge to not play that extra game or two and go to bed instead. To your last question - we do think that we can both be for-profit and build an app to help people. One similar model that we often think of is apps like MyFitnessPal - a tech company built to help people lose weight. All good questions, thanks!
- smt88 9y ago
  > "Do you need an app to prevent you p[l]aying games?" This is like asking if people need drugs/therapy/whatever to prevent them from smoking cigarettes. Games are addictive when designed innocently, and many modern games are designed to create addiction. Loot boxes are possibly the most visible example right now. > "Did you start a for-profit tech company just to 'help' people?" Helping and charging people are not mutually exclusive. I'm certainly not a hard-core capitalist, but I do know many people whose passion is to help others and the rate that they charge is to allow them to have good quality of life at the same time.
rapfaria 9y ago
How are you going to block a CIV 6 game? ;)
- jacobush 9y ago
  Premium. A bunch of thugs break down your door and reads Tolstoy to you until you fall asleep.
- hanrelan 9y ago
  We have some ideas for dealing with single player games like putting an overlay over the screen or slowly grayscaling it, but we've decided to focus on multiplayer games for now. I also kind of like this Tolstoy idea...
- vorpalhex 9y ago
  Just start making the AI take forever on their turns until you give up.
nuggien 9y ago
Do you really need computer vision to detect when someone is in a game? There are certain static elements on the screen in every game that you could probably just take a current screenshot and match against known images?
- hanrelan 9y ago
  We tried matching against known elements (template matching), but unfortunately that didn't hold up well given the large number of resolutions games support. One problem is that the elements themselves don't necessarily scale proportionally. For example, if you have a button with some text in it and you reduce the resolution, often the game will keep the text larger but reduce the padding around the text. This makes template matching tough. We found blob detection works pretty reliably and uses minimally CPU, but we're not CV experts so if anyone has other ideas we'd love to hear them!
  - clemmakesapps 9y ago
    It would be nice to see a metric for performance impact of this blob detection so that gamers with less beefy computers don't have to compromise their gameplay settings to accommodate for this app
    - hanrelan 9y ago
      We don't have official benchmarks, but you shouldn't see much of an impact at all since we only do it once a second and on a small portion of the screen. If you do notice a difference please let me know.
  - ngokevin 9y ago
    Can you read from memory? Speedrunners use programs that auto-split (detect when the runner has reached a certain stage of the game), I think by reading from memory.
    - hanrelan 9y ago
codegladiator 9y ago
Do you do the computer vision part on the end users machine or your server ?
- hanrelan 9y ago
  End-user's machine. The images aren't saved and never leave your machine
growt 9y ago
You could just detect key presses. For most games 30 seconds without wasd or 1234 means you're in a menu.
- hanrelan 9y ago
  We do use that for idle detection (so we don't count it for your total played time). But for the end-game detection we need to be more accurate because we don't want to accidentally trigger in the middle of a game (maybe you're waiting for a respawn and stepped away from your comp while dead) and we want to immediately trigger when the game ends so you can't queue for the next one.
Cilvic 9y ago
I'm a target user and installed Leechblock extension for that purpose to block op.gg Really smooth download and config. Kudos. I like you don't make me register right away. I was surprised UAC came up twice though. Tangent: Recently I found that "3 games" a night really changed my approach to league and gave me more quality and less stress to start another game etc. etc.
- hanrelan 9y ago
  Thanks! David put a lot of effort into making the config really intuitive so he'll be pleased to hear that. The UAC is once for the installer and once for the app since it requires admin privileges to apply the block.
  - Cilvic 9y ago
    I don't know spefically about your internals, but you could try to install with user rights only (= no UAC) and then only do UAC when you need the block?
    - hanrelan 9y ago
      If I remember right the reason the installer needs admin rights it to be able to kill and overwrite a previous installation of Temper
baby_wipe 9y ago
How hard is it uninstall and reinstall?
- hanrelan 9y ago
  It's straightforward using standard Windows add/remove. However if you uninstall while blocked, you stay blocked until you reinstall, so you should only uninstall while not blocked if you want to get rid of the app. If you do happen to uninstall while blocked and want to remove the block contact me and I can tell you how to do that.
belthesar 9y ago
I'm interested in what your thoughts, if any, have been to support MMO's. I think it'd be easy enough for folks entering and exiting instanced content to detect, but for folks doing something like crafting or gathering, which are generally repetitive tasks that don't change the field of gameplay much to demarcate a "done" step.
- hanrelan 9y ago
  This is a good question and something we've been thinking about. We don't have a good answer for non-episodic games, but it might be something along the lines of slowly graying out the screen after you pass your cut-off.
clemmakesapps 9y ago
Neat idea! Is there a mac version in the works?
- hanrelan 9y ago
  Not at the moment - we're focused on Windows and increasing the number of games for now. But we'll definitely keep it in mind
cdiamand 9y ago
Any advice on how to get started with computer vision / blob detection? Is there any good open source software to play around with?
- hanrelan 9y ago
  We're using AForge.NET but OpenCV is great too. This was a pretty useful tutorial: http://www.aforgenet.com/articles/shape_checker/ http://www.aforgenet.com/articles/shape_checker/
  - cdiamand 9y ago
    Thanks for sharing!
emerged 9y ago
I wrote a program which would take an initial seed password and run a number of sha1 iterations to get a digest back. I used it to lock myself out of websites such that I couldn't get back in without dedicating N hours of serial cpu time. In hindsight, I had invented my own proof of work system. Never had that sort of addiction with video games, but I can understand it from that experience. I'd only fear that I'd quickly learn how to hack this tool and disable it whenever I wanted.
- hanrelan 9y ago
  Haha that's a really clever scheme
laurentb 9y ago
i'm at a loss here as to why people bother installing these kinds of apps (the focus time apps overall i mean) to prevent them from doing something? if i have this on, can't i just simply kill the process through the task manager and be done with it? genuine question here... bearing that in mind, i'm curious to understand what was the rationale from YC to have them into the W18 batch from a business/revenue standpoint?
- DanHulton 9y ago
  Oftentimes, having just one step in the way of something is enough to break the habit. Like, move the cookies off the counter and into the cupboard above the fridge even works. This is just another application of that.
  - vtange 9y ago
    But then why not just make the shortcut to the game inconvenient to access (hide it in a folder in a folder in a folder) or just plain uninstall the game (adds the extra step of reinstalling to play).
    - undersuit 9y ago
      1) Windows Search puts all my applications just a few keystrokes away, regardless of shortcuts. 2) It's not about abstaining from the game, its about playing a healthy amount. Reinstalling the game daily isn't going to teach you not to play all night, it's going teach you to not uninstall the game every night after your session.
      - laurentb 9y ago
        and killing a process in the task manager is easy enough for anyone who games enough to see this as a problem... I can edit my hosts file to point facebook.com to 127.0.0.1 in general, but it's even more trivial to get rid of it when i do want to check facebook (not that i crave it that much anyway)....
    - 9y ago
kylestewart 9y ago
Any insight on how this will scale into a sustainable business? I'm an indie app developer and find that most of my ideas for new products die in ideation phase because they seem financially unsustainable. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong? Temper sounds like a feature in a larger app, not a business. Whats the next step?
- hanrelan 9y ago
  We could expand to mobile which includes a large number of gamers. We also think there's more to be done around the area of healthy gaming in general (eg. avoiding toxic games). Another thing is we've had some people ask us for tools around Facebook/Netflix/YouTube, but we're focused on gaming for now.
  - kylestewart 9y ago
    I'm starting to see the vision a bit. A holistic solution to creating a healthy balance of things like Facebook and video games could become a sustainable business. Headspace might be a good company to learn some ideas from. They seem to be doing really well selling "peace of mind". Good luck!
JohnJamesRambo 9y ago
>9% of gamers overuse video games This seems low.
matchbok 9y ago
How in the world is this a potential business? Has YC gone down the drain? Dear lord. This is a clock for christ's sake.
- krapp 9y ago
  An app that only sent the word "yo" was once valued at $10 million and hyped as a revolutionary new paradigm in communication. I can't even be surprised anymore at the things people will throw money at.
jholman 9y ago
I was stoked for a sec. I'm a gamer who overuses video games, for sure, and especially late at night. But it'd need to cope with my (evolving) Steam library. So far in 2018 I've spent meaningful late-night play time on half a dozen different games. Mostly single-player. Another year might see another pattern. I look forward to hearing about your progress. Good luck!

33 points by hanrelan 9y ago

angryasian 9y ago

couldn't you just look at windows processes and keep track of how long its running based on when a user starts the timer. Really wouldn't an annoying timer do the job just as well ?

sparrish 9y ago

Please add FortNite

hanrelan 9y ago
That's next on our list!

Y_Y 9y ago

Do you need computer vision to tell a have is running? Do you need an app to prevent you paying games? Did you start a for-profit tech company just to "help" people?

foxbarrington 9y ago
The computer vision is not to detect if the game application is running, it's to detect if the game application is running and the user is in the middle of a "match". In other words, if the application can be shut down without negatively impacting the player's stats or team members. I don't think that whether or not someone "needs" an app for self-control is the question. It's whether or not outsourcing that self-control is useful. I've seen many comments from people who get benefit from blocking HN, reddit, and FB for specified periods of time.
hanrelan 9y ago
We don't need blob detection to tell us the game is running, but one of the core features of Temper is that it doesn't block you while you're in the middle of the game. To do that, we need to know when the game ends which we do by capturing the game screen and detecting when UI elements corresponding to the end of the game show up. Definitely not all gamers needs an app like Temper, but we have noticed a fair number of people (including ourselves) benefit from the additional nudge to not play that extra game or two and go to bed instead. To your last question - we do think that we can both be for-profit and build an app to help people. One similar model that we often think of is apps like MyFitnessPal - a tech company built to help people lose weight. All good questions, thanks!
smt88 9y ago
> "Do you need an app to prevent you p[l]aying games?" This is like asking if people need drugs/therapy/whatever to prevent them from smoking cigarettes. Games are addictive when designed innocently, and many modern games are designed to create addiction. Loot boxes are possibly the most visible example right now. > "Did you start a for-profit tech company just to 'help' people?" Helping and charging people are not mutually exclusive. I'm certainly not a hard-core capitalist, but I do know many people whose passion is to help others and the rate that they charge is to allow them to have good quality of life at the same time.

rapfaria 9y ago

How are you going to block a CIV 6 game? ;)

jacobush 9y ago
Premium. A bunch of thugs break down your door and reads Tolstoy to you until you fall asleep.
hanrelan 9y ago
We have some ideas for dealing with single player games like putting an overlay over the screen or slowly grayscaling it, but we've decided to focus on multiplayer games for now. I also kind of like this Tolstoy idea...
vorpalhex 9y ago
Just start making the AI take forever on their turns until you give up.

nuggien 9y ago

Do you really need computer vision to detect when someone is in a game? There are certain static elements on the screen in every game that you could probably just take a current screenshot and match against known images?

hanrelan 9y ago
We tried matching against known elements (template matching), but unfortunately that didn't hold up well given the large number of resolutions games support. One problem is that the elements themselves don't necessarily scale proportionally. For example, if you have a button with some text in it and you reduce the resolution, often the game will keep the text larger but reduce the padding around the text. This makes template matching tough. We found blob detection works pretty reliably and uses minimally CPU, but we're not CV experts so if anyone has other ideas we'd love to hear them!
- clemmakesapps 9y ago
  It would be nice to see a metric for performance impact of this blob detection so that gamers with less beefy computers don't have to compromise their gameplay settings to accommodate for this app
  - hanrelan 9y ago
    We don't have official benchmarks, but you shouldn't see much of an impact at all since we only do it once a second and on a small portion of the screen. If you do notice a difference please let me know.
- ngokevin 9y ago
  Can you read from memory? Speedrunners use programs that auto-split (detect when the runner has reached a certain stage of the game), I think by reading from memory.
  - hanrelan 9y ago

codegladiator 9y ago

Do you do the computer vision part on the end users machine or your server ?

hanrelan 9y ago
End-user's machine. The images aren't saved and never leave your machine

growt 9y ago

You could just detect key presses. For most games 30 seconds without wasd or 1234 means you're in a menu.

hanrelan 9y ago
We do use that for idle detection (so we don't count it for your total played time). But for the end-game detection we need to be more accurate because we don't want to accidentally trigger in the middle of a game (maybe you're waiting for a respawn and stepped away from your comp while dead) and we want to immediately trigger when the game ends so you can't queue for the next one.

Cilvic 9y ago

I'm a target user and installed Leechblock extension for that purpose to block op.gg Really smooth download and config. Kudos. I like you don't make me register right away. I was surprised UAC came up twice though. Tangent: Recently I found that "3 games" a night really changed my approach to league and gave me more quality and less stress to start another game etc. etc.

hanrelan 9y ago
Thanks! David put a lot of effort into making the config really intuitive so he'll be pleased to hear that. The UAC is once for the installer and once for the app since it requires admin privileges to apply the block.
- Cilvic 9y ago
  I don't know spefically about your internals, but you could try to install with user rights only (= no UAC) and then only do UAC when you need the block?
  - hanrelan 9y ago
    If I remember right the reason the installer needs admin rights it to be able to kill and overwrite a previous installation of Temper

baby_wipe 9y ago

How hard is it uninstall and reinstall?

hanrelan 9y ago
It's straightforward using standard Windows add/remove. However if you uninstall while blocked, you stay blocked until you reinstall, so you should only uninstall while not blocked if you want to get rid of the app. If you do happen to uninstall while blocked and want to remove the block contact me and I can tell you how to do that.

belthesar 9y ago

I'm interested in what your thoughts, if any, have been to support MMO's. I think it'd be easy enough for folks entering and exiting instanced content to detect, but for folks doing something like crafting or gathering, which are generally repetitive tasks that don't change the field of gameplay much to demarcate a "done" step.

hanrelan 9y ago
This is a good question and something we've been thinking about. We don't have a good answer for non-episodic games, but it might be something along the lines of slowly graying out the screen after you pass your cut-off.

clemmakesapps 9y ago

Neat idea! Is there a mac version in the works?

hanrelan 9y ago
Not at the moment - we're focused on Windows and increasing the number of games for now. But we'll definitely keep it in mind

cdiamand 9y ago

Any advice on how to get started with computer vision / blob detection? Is there any good open source software to play around with?

hanrelan 9y ago
We're using AForge.NET but OpenCV is great too. This was a pretty useful tutorial: http://www.aforgenet.com/articles/shape_checker/ http://www.aforgenet.com/articles/shape_checker/
- cdiamand 9y ago
  Thanks for sharing!

emerged 9y ago

I wrote a program which would take an initial seed password and run a number of sha1 iterations to get a digest back. I used it to lock myself out of websites such that I couldn't get back in without dedicating N hours of serial cpu time. In hindsight, I had invented my own proof of work system. Never had that sort of addiction with video games, but I can understand it from that experience. I'd only fear that I'd quickly learn how to hack this tool and disable it whenever I wanted.

hanrelan 9y ago
Haha that's a really clever scheme

laurentb 9y ago

i'm at a loss here as to why people bother installing these kinds of apps (the focus time apps overall i mean) to prevent them from doing something? if i have this on, can't i just simply kill the process through the task manager and be done with it? genuine question here... bearing that in mind, i'm curious to understand what was the rationale from YC to have them into the W18 batch from a business/revenue standpoint?

DanHulton 9y ago
Oftentimes, having just one step in the way of something is enough to break the habit. Like, move the cookies off the counter and into the cupboard above the fridge even works. This is just another application of that.
- vtange 9y ago
  But then why not just make the shortcut to the game inconvenient to access (hide it in a folder in a folder in a folder) or just plain uninstall the game (adds the extra step of reinstalling to play).
  - undersuit 9y ago
    1) Windows Search puts all my applications just a few keystrokes away, regardless of shortcuts. 2) It's not about abstaining from the game, its about playing a healthy amount. Reinstalling the game daily isn't going to teach you not to play all night, it's going teach you to not uninstall the game every night after your session.
    - laurentb 9y ago
      and killing a process in the task manager is easy enough for anyone who games enough to see this as a problem... I can edit my hosts file to point facebook.com to 127.0.0.1 in general, but it's even more trivial to get rid of it when i do want to check facebook (not that i crave it that much anyway)....
  - 9y ago

kylestewart 9y ago

Any insight on how this will scale into a sustainable business? I'm an indie app developer and find that most of my ideas for new products die in ideation phase because they seem financially unsustainable. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong? Temper sounds like a feature in a larger app, not a business. Whats the next step?

hanrelan 9y ago
We could expand to mobile which includes a large number of gamers. We also think there's more to be done around the area of healthy gaming in general (eg. avoiding toxic games). Another thing is we've had some people ask us for tools around Facebook/Netflix/YouTube, but we're focused on gaming for now.
- kylestewart 9y ago
  I'm starting to see the vision a bit. A holistic solution to creating a healthy balance of things like Facebook and video games could become a sustainable business. Headspace might be a good company to learn some ideas from. They seem to be doing really well selling "peace of mind". Good luck!

JohnJamesRambo 9y ago

>9% of gamers overuse video games This seems low.

matchbok 9y ago

How in the world is this a potential business? Has YC gone down the drain? Dear lord. This is a clock for christ's sake.

krapp 9y ago
An app that only sent the word "yo" was once valued at $10 million and hyped as a revolutionary new paradigm in communication. I can't even be surprised anymore at the things people will throw money at.

jholman 9y ago

I was stoked for a sec. I'm a gamer who overuses video games, for sure, and especially late at night. But it'd need to cope with my (evolving) Steam library. So far in 2018 I've spent meaningful late-night play time on half a dozen different games. Mostly single-player. Another year might see another pattern. I look forward to hearing about your progress. Good luck!