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The fact that this post seems to be engendered by a comment on a forum ("The pathfinding in the game is terrible.") reminds me of 'Designing Video Games is Hard

The fact that this post seems to be engendered by a comment on a forum ("The pathfinding in the game is terrible.") reminds me of 'Designing Video Games is Hard Work, But the Millions of Angry Players Make It All Worthwhile' http://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/designing-video-games-hard-work-millions-angry-players-make-worthwhile/ http://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/designing-video-games-hard...

kimikimi 9y ago
A corollary to this is that the more a game looks and feels like a fallible piece of software, the more players will react to it like a piece of software, ushering you onto the "infinite demands" feature treadmill in an attempt to make the game feel more complete. If it all feels adequately justified by the scenario and core premises, then there's an actual resolution. They shut up and play.
pvg 9y ago
It's not really the same sort of thing. In this case, the programmers are dealing with the tricky problem of trying to fix the pathfinding somewhat while leaving the experience of the original game 'authentic'. The pathfinding is terrible, the pathfinding was terrible 21 years ago when the game came out. These forum posts are not surprising and unexpected whining, just a reminder new audiences are finding bad pathfinding from 21 years ago still bad. In news from Spain, Generallissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
- paulryanrogers 9y ago
  Maybe the solution is a classic/pro mode and a novice/Renaissance mode.
  - s_m_t 9y ago
    splitting the player base is almost always a bad idea
    - paulryanrogers 9y ago
      If the alternative is completely alienating a large pool of potential customers then I don't see the disadvantage
baldfat 9y ago
I use to be a high level Age of Kings player (Even got an invite to the first World Cyber Olympics in NYC). The pathing was ALWAYS horrible but the PATCHING by the developer was even worse. There were times when the community just banned certain things because they were just broken (Teuten's Town halls were only costing wood but did more damage than high costing resource units and buildings). As a high level player a broken pathing allowed me to micro my troops and get an advantage over other players. Most players play with the speed of a 4X and there were few of us who played by trying to make 150+ commands a minute. So this horrible pathing was seen as an advantage by faster players. Scale APM Description ~50 Casual player ~75 Experienced player ~150 Proficient player >200 Proficient player with superfluous actions
- hart_russell 9y ago
  Sounds a lot like brood war. If you can micro your units well you have a significant advantage.
- preben 9y ago
  Brood War does this all the time. The pathing is notoriously bad[1] and nothing has been done to fix it because it's not a problem. It allows players extinguish themselves by working with the weird behaviors. [1] Day[9] on Pathing in BW https://youtu.be/rWvoMrYCQBU?t=17m50s https://youtu.be/rWvoMrYCQBU?t=17m50s
  - daodedickinson 9y ago
    Brood War hasn't had to ban a whole unit or building, though. EDIT: Now that I think about it, the narrow ramps that you see in the campaign are banned for competitive maps because units like Dragoon will simply never go up or down one unless babysat the whole way, one by one, clicking a few pixels further with each move command so that the Dragoon doesn't go backward. Brood War is full of unbalanced and unworkable mechanics and was fixed not by Blizzard patches, but by literally professional pro map makers.
  - paulryanrogers 9y ago
    As a casual gamer I find this aggravating. Why should the NPCs be left dumber and less human than they could be? It breaks immersion and makes the game harder for novices to enjoy.

kimikimi 9y ago

A corollary to this is that the more a game looks and feels like a fallible piece of software, the more players will react to it like a piece of software, ushering you onto the "infinite demands" feature treadmill in an attempt to make the game feel more complete. If it all feels adequately justified by the scenario and core premises, then there's an actual resolution. They shut up and play.

pvg 9y ago

It's not really the same sort of thing. In this case, the programmers are dealing with the tricky problem of trying to fix the pathfinding somewhat while leaving the experience of the original game 'authentic'. The pathfinding is terrible, the pathfinding was terrible 21 years ago when the game came out. These forum posts are not surprising and unexpected whining, just a reminder new audiences are finding bad pathfinding from 21 years ago still bad. In news from Spain, Generallissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

paulryanrogers 9y ago
Maybe the solution is a classic/pro mode and a novice/Renaissance mode.
- s_m_t 9y ago
  splitting the player base is almost always a bad idea
  - paulryanrogers 9y ago
    If the alternative is completely alienating a large pool of potential customers then I don't see the disadvantage

baldfat 9y ago

I use to be a high level Age of Kings player (Even got an invite to the first World Cyber Olympics in NYC). The pathing was ALWAYS horrible but the PATCHING by the developer was even worse. There were times when the community just banned certain things because they were just broken (Teuten's Town halls were only costing wood but did more damage than high costing resource units and buildings). As a high level player a broken pathing allowed me to micro my troops and get an advantage over other players. Most players play with the speed of a 4X and there were few of us who played by trying to make 150+ commands a minute. So this horrible pathing was seen as an advantage by faster players. Scale APM Description ~50 Casual player ~75 Experienced player ~150 Proficient player >200 Proficient player with superfluous actions

hart_russell 9y ago
Sounds a lot like brood war. If you can micro your units well you have a significant advantage.
preben 9y ago
Brood War does this all the time. The pathing is notoriously bad[1] and nothing has been done to fix it because it's not a problem. It allows players extinguish themselves by working with the weird behaviors. [1] Day[9] on Pathing in BW https://youtu.be/rWvoMrYCQBU?t=17m50s https://youtu.be/rWvoMrYCQBU?t=17m50s
- daodedickinson 9y ago
  Brood War hasn't had to ban a whole unit or building, though. EDIT: Now that I think about it, the narrow ramps that you see in the campaign are banned for competitive maps because units like Dragoon will simply never go up or down one unless babysat the whole way, one by one, clicking a few pixels further with each move command so that the Dragoon doesn't go backward. Brood War is full of unbalanced and unworkable mechanics and was fixed not by Blizzard patches, but by literally professional pro map makers.
- paulryanrogers 9y ago
  As a casual gamer I find this aggravating. Why should the NPCs be left dumber and less human than they could be? It breaks immersion and makes the game harder for novices to enjoy.