7 ms·

Thanks so much for putting this on here. I have read Auslander's "Foreskin's Lament" and could deeply identify with his critique and eventual rejection of so-ca

Thanks so much for putting this on here. I have read Auslander's "Foreskin's Lament" and could deeply identify with his critique and eventual rejection of so-called "modern Judaism" (indeed - an oxymoron). I come from a non-religious Jewish family, but I too was circumcised without being asked at 8 days old (which today makes me resent my parents), I too recited the Torah in a synagogue on my Bar-Mitsva, though I was not really forced to, it was just something everybody did. Today I live far away from this God-forsaken place called Israel with its ridiculous religious laws, its racism, its recursively fractured society (the more devout you are, the smaller your "community"), its cancerous infiltration of institutional religion into government, its sick obsession with death and martyrdom, its stupid veneration of men-with-yarmulkas, and its infantile particularism. Today I reject Judaism as an ethnic identity and as a philosophy. For me being Jewish is a biographical detail. It does not define me as a person, it is not who am. I enjoy Jewish humour as much as anyone and embrace my father's painful experiences during WWII, but it cannot mean that I'm better or more important than someone who's not a jew. I am grateful for having escaped this Jewish reality distortion field. I'm grateful for being able to live and raise my kids in an egalitarian society that transcends ethnic and or religious origins and instead embraces solidarity and rationality, indeed modernity. Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité

bpizzi 9y ago
If infantile religious endoctrinement was avoided, then it would only take one generation for religions to disappear almost entirely.
- badosu 9y ago
  Not so sure about it. Religions tell a compelling story for multiple other reasons. Maybe it could happen if some of these roles were expanded by the media as it seems to be an ongoing process, e.g. superheroes movies. I am not sure if that would be desirable though.
  - 1_player 9y ago
    I agree with GP, but it's a hard point to prove. I only have my (and my brothers) anecdotal experience: We weren't baptised, nobody ever pushed or even talked religion with us, we went to church with grandma a couple times a year, and lived in a regular Catholic country (Italy). I recall the first time I thought about God and afterlife and my spirituality I was around 14, old enough to entertain these kind of thoughts, and old enough not to care. God wasn't just a concept I felt I needed in my life. We're 3 brothers (and a sister), and only she wanted to be baptised when we was younger, around 8, because her grandmother (which wasn't MY grandmother) was somewhat religious, and often talked about it with her. Now she's 12, and she's not interested anymore, probably after the influence of the three older brothers who go through life without any consideration about spirituality. Again, this is just a N=4 experience, but living in Europe, where most modern families are not religious anymore, it's most apparent. Only one person in my 50 closest acquaintances believes in God, and goes to church. Yet everybody is baptised, all families have a crucifix in the house, and everybody goes through a couple months reading the Bible with their priest (catechism) when they're 10 or 11 years old. I doubt many of their sons and grandsons will find any interest in religion.
    - golemotron 9y ago
      There's an inverse correlation between social safety net and religiosity [1] [1] http://faculty.washington.edu/tgill/Gill%20Lundsgaarde%20Welfare%20Religion.pdf http://faculty.washington.edu/tgill/Gill%20Lundsgaarde%20Wel...
  - bpizzi 9y ago
    Of course some percentage will seek religion on their own. But the main point of that fathomless hypothesis is that, on the scale of humanity, today's religion would fall back to old traditions initiated in a previous era and now only followed by factions of lunatics.
- golemotron 9y ago
  Interestingly the same is true of secular indoctrination. Christianity has resurfaced and flourished in Russia and Eastern Europe in the wake of the Soviet Union.
- nolliebs180 9y ago
  But there are always multiple generations living at the same time. Do you only ever deal with one generation of people day in and day out?
  - bpizzi 9y ago
    Well, let me rephrase more accurately then: 'then religions would gradually be forgotten as more and more endoctrined people die without passing their religious doctrine to their children'.
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  Is this supposed be an argument for infantile religions indoctrination? "If we didn't cram this down the throats of captive audiences with undeveloped critical thinking skills, no one would believe it!". There's a popular meme going around describing the correct reaction to such a claim: "Then perish".
- meri_dian 9y ago
  Maybe the religions that we are familiar with today, but new religions will take their place. Why? Well, explain where the universe came from. Explain consciousness. Explain what happens after we die. Can you? I didn't think you could. There are no human accessible answers to these questions. Humanity will forever be confused when we ponder them. I love the scientific method but it in principle cannot answer these questions.
  - bpizzi 9y ago
    I fully agree on what you said. But the question is, as always, about proportions and statistics: how many people adhere to a religion today because their parent told them they would go to hell otherwise, versus how many choosed actively by seeking a spiritual answers in questions not answered by science?
  - pasquinelli 9y ago
    i can't answer a lot of questions, some of which i'm actually interested in, but what's religion got that i don't?
  - jungturk 9y ago
    I'm not convinced that folks would defer to new religions to address those questions. I don't have data to support it, but I think the modern mind is better equipped to accept uncertainty and ignorance these days so some might just allow those questions to remain presently unanswered. Even if the scientific method doesn't directly answer a question, it models the approach of using a placeholder for things not yet known rather than demanding someone make shit up to eliminate the unknown.
nerdponx 9y ago
What would "modern Judaism" mean anyway? I am not sure if you have experienced Judaism in America, but it is much more humble (and certainly more modern) than what you experienced in Israel.
meri_dian 9y ago
"Today I reject Judaism as an ethnic identity and as a philosophy. For me being Jewish is a biographical detail." That attitude really should be held by all people of all ethnicities. But the fact that you "resent your parents" because they chose to follow an ancient cultural practice that is colloquially thought to be harmless seems melodramatic. You shouldn't resent them. Resent the practice itself perhaps.
- pasquinelli 9y ago
  i learned from my grandpa that, if you're in america, being circumcised is good when you're old and need your diaper changed.
- kiliantics 9y ago
  I think some people still need this attitude. For instance if their ethnic culture or heritage is undergoing a process of repression and erasure. Like say the Kurds in Turkey or the Rohingya in Myanmar. And there are still groups who experience this in the west, like black or indigenous people.
lykahb 9y ago
Rejecting your roots creates a void that must be filled with other ideas or addictions. Alas, in the US there are many Jews who believe in socialism. Hostility to what was rejected is natural, so it's not surprising that you hate Israel so much. For most of the Jews outside of the US this outlook would seem strange. I think you may become a happier person if you escape your new "reality distortion field" and stop hating this inherent part of you and your family.
- blackbagboys 9y ago
  This is reactionary nonsense. In no sense is any culturally transmitted system of metaphysics "inherently part of you", any more than driving on the right- or left-hand side of the road is "inherently part of you".
romwell 9y ago
>For me being Jewish is a biographical detail. It does not define me as a person, it is not who am. I enjoy Jewish humour as much as anyone and embrace my father's painful experiences during WWII, but it cannot mean that I'm better or more important than someone who's not a jew. Well, that's what being Jewish -- in a modern sense -- sounds like to me. The parts that you embrace are what define being Jewish as an ethnic identity. At least that's how I think of myself, being jewish-like-Feynman, not jewish-like-whoever-goes-to-synagogues. But again, I don't know what you are revolting against; nobody in my family has been religious since 1917 (my great-grandmother used to tell me she was brought up a "Pioneer"[1] in a figurative sense) - and I only had to part with my adenoids as a kid. [1]In the sense of Lenin's Pioneers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin_All-Union_Pioneer_Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin_All-Union_Pione...
MichaelMoser123 9y ago
do you reject all ethnic identities or just the ethnic/national identity of Jews?

bpizzi 9y ago

If infantile religious endoctrinement was avoided, then it would only take one generation for religions to disappear almost entirely.

badosu 9y ago
Not so sure about it. Religions tell a compelling story for multiple other reasons. Maybe it could happen if some of these roles were expanded by the media as it seems to be an ongoing process, e.g. superheroes movies. I am not sure if that would be desirable though.
- 1_player 9y ago
  I agree with GP, but it's a hard point to prove. I only have my (and my brothers) anecdotal experience: We weren't baptised, nobody ever pushed or even talked religion with us, we went to church with grandma a couple times a year, and lived in a regular Catholic country (Italy). I recall the first time I thought about God and afterlife and my spirituality I was around 14, old enough to entertain these kind of thoughts, and old enough not to care. God wasn't just a concept I felt I needed in my life. We're 3 brothers (and a sister), and only she wanted to be baptised when we was younger, around 8, because her grandmother (which wasn't MY grandmother) was somewhat religious, and often talked about it with her. Now she's 12, and she's not interested anymore, probably after the influence of the three older brothers who go through life without any consideration about spirituality. Again, this is just a N=4 experience, but living in Europe, where most modern families are not religious anymore, it's most apparent. Only one person in my 50 closest acquaintances believes in God, and goes to church. Yet everybody is baptised, all families have a crucifix in the house, and everybody goes through a couple months reading the Bible with their priest (catechism) when they're 10 or 11 years old. I doubt many of their sons and grandsons will find any interest in religion.
  - golemotron 9y ago
    There's an inverse correlation between social safety net and religiosity [1] [1] http://faculty.washington.edu/tgill/Gill%20Lundsgaarde%20Welfare%20Religion.pdf http://faculty.washington.edu/tgill/Gill%20Lundsgaarde%20Wel...
- bpizzi 9y ago
  Of course some percentage will seek religion on their own. But the main point of that fathomless hypothesis is that, on the scale of humanity, today's religion would fall back to old traditions initiated in a previous era and now only followed by factions of lunatics.
golemotron 9y ago
Interestingly the same is true of secular indoctrination. Christianity has resurfaced and flourished in Russia and Eastern Europe in the wake of the Soviet Union.
nolliebs180 9y ago
But there are always multiple generations living at the same time. Do you only ever deal with one generation of people day in and day out?
- bpizzi 9y ago
  Well, let me rephrase more accurately then: 'then religions would gradually be forgotten as more and more endoctrined people die without passing their religious doctrine to their children'.
Analemma_ 9y ago
Is this supposed be an argument for infantile religions indoctrination? "If we didn't cram this down the throats of captive audiences with undeveloped critical thinking skills, no one would believe it!". There's a popular meme going around describing the correct reaction to such a claim: "Then perish".
meri_dian 9y ago
Maybe the religions that we are familiar with today, but new religions will take their place. Why? Well, explain where the universe came from. Explain consciousness. Explain what happens after we die. Can you? I didn't think you could. There are no human accessible answers to these questions. Humanity will forever be confused when we ponder them. I love the scientific method but it in principle cannot answer these questions.
- bpizzi 9y ago
  I fully agree on what you said. But the question is, as always, about proportions and statistics: how many people adhere to a religion today because their parent told them they would go to hell otherwise, versus how many choosed actively by seeking a spiritual answers in questions not answered by science?
- pasquinelli 9y ago
  i can't answer a lot of questions, some of which i'm actually interested in, but what's religion got that i don't?
- jungturk 9y ago
  I'm not convinced that folks would defer to new religions to address those questions. I don't have data to support it, but I think the modern mind is better equipped to accept uncertainty and ignorance these days so some might just allow those questions to remain presently unanswered. Even if the scientific method doesn't directly answer a question, it models the approach of using a placeholder for things not yet known rather than demanding someone make shit up to eliminate the unknown.

nerdponx 9y ago

What would "modern Judaism" mean anyway? I am not sure if you have experienced Judaism in America, but it is much more humble (and certainly more modern) than what you experienced in Israel.

meri_dian 9y ago

"Today I reject Judaism as an ethnic identity and as a philosophy. For me being Jewish is a biographical detail." That attitude really should be held by all people of all ethnicities. But the fact that you "resent your parents" because they chose to follow an ancient cultural practice that is colloquially thought to be harmless seems melodramatic. You shouldn't resent them. Resent the practice itself perhaps.

pasquinelli 9y ago
i learned from my grandpa that, if you're in america, being circumcised is good when you're old and need your diaper changed.
kiliantics 9y ago
I think some people still need this attitude. For instance if their ethnic culture or heritage is undergoing a process of repression and erasure. Like say the Kurds in Turkey or the Rohingya in Myanmar. And there are still groups who experience this in the west, like black or indigenous people.

lykahb 9y ago

Rejecting your roots creates a void that must be filled with other ideas or addictions. Alas, in the US there are many Jews who believe in socialism. Hostility to what was rejected is natural, so it's not surprising that you hate Israel so much. For most of the Jews outside of the US this outlook would seem strange. I think you may become a happier person if you escape your new "reality distortion field" and stop hating this inherent part of you and your family.

blackbagboys 9y ago
This is reactionary nonsense. In no sense is any culturally transmitted system of metaphysics "inherently part of you", any more than driving on the right- or left-hand side of the road is "inherently part of you".

romwell 9y ago

>For me being Jewish is a biographical detail. It does not define me as a person, it is not who am. I enjoy Jewish humour as much as anyone and embrace my father's painful experiences during WWII, but it cannot mean that I'm better or more important than someone who's not a jew. Well, that's what being Jewish -- in a modern sense -- sounds like to me. The parts that you embrace are what define being Jewish as an ethnic identity. At least that's how I think of myself, being jewish-like-Feynman, not jewish-like-whoever-goes-to-synagogues. But again, I don't know what you are revolting against; nobody in my family has been religious since 1917 (my great-grandmother used to tell me she was brought up a "Pioneer"[1] in a figurative sense) - and I only had to part with my adenoids as a kid. [1]In the sense of Lenin's Pioneers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin_All-Union_Pioneer_Organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin_All-Union_Pione...

MichaelMoser123 9y ago

do you reject all ethnic identities or just the ethnic/national identity of Jews?