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I guess it depends on your definition of “most people.” I grew up poor and around poor people. No one thought wages were determined by supply and demand. It was

I guess it depends on your definition of “most people.” I grew up poor and around poor people. No one thought wages were determined by supply and demand. It was always about what the boss could get away with.

skookumchuck 9y ago
And employees negotiate for as much as they can get away with. Supply & demand.
- chowells 9y ago
  Most employees get fired for trying that. Glibly saying "supply & demand" doesn't erase the massive power imbalance between employer and employee in most businesses.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    > Most employees get fired for trying that. If one goes about it like an @ss, and without doing one's homework, sure. The way to do it is to deliver value that is worth more money, and then approach management with a proven track record of you being worth more money. It worked for me.
    - chowells 9y ago
      A very large percentage of employers don't have employees worth money. They have employees as cost centers, totally devoid of worth as humans or even resources. I know a lot of people who work for these companies. They have jobs like data entry or cashiers for massive corporations that have bought out all their local competition in their particular market. Their evaluation scale is purely "how often do they screw up?". I used to date a woman who had (for a short time) a data entry job. They were expected to make no more than 3 mistakes per month. There was no reward for fewer mistakes. Any more and your job was in jeopardy. Employees in these situations have the power to negotiate exactly when the loss of the job is not a significant threat to their life. Most employees with these jobs have them because they needed some job, any job, to keep their life together. The employers know this. Anyone who rocks the boat isn't an employee desperate enough to accept the abuse, so they aren't wanted there anymore. This is exactly the point the article was making. A non-negligible portion of the population has no alternative that's better than accepting this abuse.
      - skookumchuck 9y ago
        Millions of people come to this country, legally and illegally. They come with nothing, often not even speaking English. But they seem to find decent jobs, move around the country to find those jobs, and are able to start businesses. I find this difficult to reconcile with your claim that people are forced to work for certain employers.
        chowells 9y ago
        That's not difficult to reconcile at all. A person with nothing has way more than a person with debts and other obligations. A person with nothing has no trouble changing their circumstances, because they have nothing to lose. Compare that to a person who is the sole caregiver/earner for family that is dependent on them, $20k in debt from medical bills. The sort of person for whom a one-week disruption in pay pushes them across the line from just barely keeping up to unable to pay their utility bills. Would you really counsel them to move on at full speed, damn the cost to their loved ones?
        skookumchuck 9y ago
        The hundreds of thousands of "Dreamers" were brought to the US as young children. Evidently there are plenty of immigrants who bring their families with them and seem to make things work. A coworker of mine once complained bitterly about a pay cut he was "forced" to take. I asked him why he didn't leave. He said he had no choice. I asked why. He said he had a wife, mortgage, car payments, etc., and could not afford even a week's disruption in his pay. I suggested that he'd made all those choices himself to max out his obligations, so that he had to run to deposit his paycheck before everything bounced. The company didn't do that, he did. He was well paid, and he'd forged all those chains on him all by himself.
        chowells 9y ago
        So... You claim that everyone trapped in these situations deserves it? That sounds a lot like admitting the people whose existence you've been denying do exist after all. It sounds like you know it and have always known it. It sounds like you're telling me they don't count because they're only getting what they deserve. I guess there's no point in me attempting further explanations - you already know all the same things I do. All I can do is beg you to take a few minutes to deeply and critically evaluate your position. Is shrugging and saying "supply & demand" really the best option we've got? Is there any chance at all that it's better to address this failure of the labor market instead?
nopriorarrests 9y ago
And the boss could get away with ignoring the law of supply and demand? How so?
- IntronExon 9y ago
  Look to AAA game companies for a host of answers to that question. Treat your employees like burn&churn part timers, focus on assembly line kinds of output, hire them young, fire them young, etc.
  - nopriorarrests 9y ago
    So, abundance of supply, because young people want to make AAA games?
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      That, and because most roles in most projects don’t require stellar talent, just the ability to shut up and code. If you’re willing and able to monetize a sub-par product, as so much of software from games to IoT seems to be, then it works. It’s all part of the race to the bottom we’re getting to live through.

skookumchuck 9y ago

And employees negotiate for as much as they can get away with. Supply & demand.

chowells 9y ago
Most employees get fired for trying that. Glibly saying "supply & demand" doesn't erase the massive power imbalance between employer and employee in most businesses.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  > Most employees get fired for trying that. If one goes about it like an @ss, and without doing one's homework, sure. The way to do it is to deliver value that is worth more money, and then approach management with a proven track record of you being worth more money. It worked for me.
  - chowells 9y ago
    A very large percentage of employers don't have employees worth money. They have employees as cost centers, totally devoid of worth as humans or even resources. I know a lot of people who work for these companies. They have jobs like data entry or cashiers for massive corporations that have bought out all their local competition in their particular market. Their evaluation scale is purely "how often do they screw up?". I used to date a woman who had (for a short time) a data entry job. They were expected to make no more than 3 mistakes per month. There was no reward for fewer mistakes. Any more and your job was in jeopardy. Employees in these situations have the power to negotiate exactly when the loss of the job is not a significant threat to their life. Most employees with these jobs have them because they needed some job, any job, to keep their life together. The employers know this. Anyone who rocks the boat isn't an employee desperate enough to accept the abuse, so they aren't wanted there anymore. This is exactly the point the article was making. A non-negligible portion of the population has no alternative that's better than accepting this abuse.
    - skookumchuck 9y ago
      Millions of people come to this country, legally and illegally. They come with nothing, often not even speaking English. But they seem to find decent jobs, move around the country to find those jobs, and are able to start businesses. I find this difficult to reconcile with your claim that people are forced to work for certain employers.
      - chowells 9y ago
        That's not difficult to reconcile at all. A person with nothing has way more than a person with debts and other obligations. A person with nothing has no trouble changing their circumstances, because they have nothing to lose. Compare that to a person who is the sole caregiver/earner for family that is dependent on them, $20k in debt from medical bills. The sort of person for whom a one-week disruption in pay pushes them across the line from just barely keeping up to unable to pay their utility bills. Would you really counsel them to move on at full speed, damn the cost to their loved ones?
        skookumchuck 9y ago
        The hundreds of thousands of "Dreamers" were brought to the US as young children. Evidently there are plenty of immigrants who bring their families with them and seem to make things work. A coworker of mine once complained bitterly about a pay cut he was "forced" to take. I asked him why he didn't leave. He said he had no choice. I asked why. He said he had a wife, mortgage, car payments, etc., and could not afford even a week's disruption in his pay. I suggested that he'd made all those choices himself to max out his obligations, so that he had to run to deposit his paycheck before everything bounced. The company didn't do that, he did. He was well paid, and he'd forged all those chains on him all by himself.
        chowells 9y ago
        So... You claim that everyone trapped in these situations deserves it? That sounds a lot like admitting the people whose existence you've been denying do exist after all. It sounds like you know it and have always known it. It sounds like you're telling me they don't count because they're only getting what they deserve. I guess there's no point in me attempting further explanations - you already know all the same things I do. All I can do is beg you to take a few minutes to deeply and critically evaluate your position. Is shrugging and saying "supply & demand" really the best option we've got? Is there any chance at all that it's better to address this failure of the labor market instead?

nopriorarrests 9y ago

And the boss could get away with ignoring the law of supply and demand? How so?

IntronExon 9y ago
Look to AAA game companies for a host of answers to that question. Treat your employees like burn&churn part timers, focus on assembly line kinds of output, hire them young, fire them young, etc.
- nopriorarrests 9y ago
  So, abundance of supply, because young people want to make AAA games?
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    That, and because most roles in most projects don’t require stellar talent, just the ability to shut up and code. If you’re willing and able to monetize a sub-par product, as so much of software from games to IoT seems to be, then it works. It’s all part of the race to the bottom we’re getting to live through.