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Based on the article from earlier today [0], my new theory is that engineers at Google have realized that the best way to get promoted is to launch a big, shiny

Based on the article from earlier today [0], my new theory is that engineers at Google have realized that the best way to get promoted is to launch a big, shiny product (regardless of need, market fit, etc), and the easiest way to get a big, shiny product is to just re-launch the same projects over, and over, and over. Who cares about long-term product strategy as long as you get your promotion? Seems like a classic case of employees optimizing for local maxima, at the expense of the global maximum. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241

justicezyx 9y ago
Please stop forcing business decisions on engineers. Especially given https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241
- gervase 9y ago
  Not at all! If that came off as a criticism of the engineers, it wasn't - it's a well-known phenomenon for poorly-managed employees (and/or poor process), since humans will naturally (and fairly!) optimize for their own personal success.
Declanomous 9y ago
I've understood this to be the explanation for years now. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge, but it's what the Google Voice community has come up with to explain why we constantly get shoved to new platforms that absolutely suck. I mean seriously, every time google voice moves to a new platform it loses several features. It's one of the reasons why I avoid Google whenever possible. I went with Office 365 Enterprise over the Google solution for my business, and I use Linux as my primary desktop. Do you know how badly you have to mess up for a Linux user to look at your offerings and say "Well, I trust Microsoft more"?
- georgemcbay 9y ago
  I remember when I would be excited/happy when Google would acquire some software/service that I use. Surely this means the project will be well supported for the foreseeable future... why else would Google pay XXX million...?! These days the same announcements just fill me with dread and I expect the the software/service to be shutdown or gimped to the point of worthlessness within a year.
- 013a 9y ago
  Are there any examples of core G-Suite products Google has deprecated? I can't think of any. Reminder that "Core G-Suite" is an official designation, not something I just made up. Right now, their Core G-Suite products are: Gmail, Drive, Docs, Sheets, Slides, Forms, Sites, Calendars, Hangouts, Hangouts Chat, Hangouts Meet, Plus, Keep, Vault, and Jamboard.
  - Declanomous 9y ago
    They don't have to discontinue a product to massively screw with my workflow. All they need to do is change how the product is accessed, or the settings and labs features that are available. I mean, point being I don't trust them not to mess up my workflow. Even if I trusted them to not screw with the core g-suite products, I trust Microsoft more than Google at this point. If you had told me that I would trust Microsoft more than Google 5 years ago I would have literally thought you were insane.
    - mirhagk 9y ago
      Microsoft has been amazing at legacy support. The fact that they had an OS be supported for 12 years is pretty amazing. In contrast Ubuntu's LTS are only 5 years
  - prepend 9y ago
    I’m still wary when they switched from free to pay for small businesses. I think in general it’s not a good idea to use free services for businesses, but in my mind it means that Google makes pretty big changes and don’t care if it disrupts you. Microsoft doesn’t do this or rarely does. If anything they start high and drop. Starting free and climbing is not good. But I don’t think they’ve ever dropped products entirely. Although hangouts has been titled a bunch of different things.
iamdave 9y ago
the easiest way to get a big, shiny product is to just re-launch the same projects over, and over, and over Replace Google with Nintendo. And before you get angry at me (and I would maybe say justifiably because I grew up with Nintendo as well), I recommend you sit through a few episodes of Zero Punctuation! covering any of the following titles: Mario, Legend of Zelda, Metroid or Smash Brothers and tell me if you detect a theme that that curmudgeon Croshaw is trying to get across. (Spoiler alert: Outside of their hardware division, Nintendo seems depressingly want for original ideas and IPs as far as gaming franchises go, which is probably a good thing to see Nintendo getting into the 'maker'verse with the switch cardboard stuff)
- sweden 9y ago
  You quote "re-launch the same projects over, and over, and over" and then you mention Metroid, one of the "less milked" Nintendo's franchises. And even Smash Bros, which has about 4 games in the entire 20 year span of the franchise. Even Mario and the Legend of Zelda, which have many many games, try to present something unique and innovative every game. I don't like to be frontal but I get a feeling that you don't have any idea of what you are talking about.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    Mario games, in particular the New Super Mario Bros. series, were starting to get a bit samey. Thankfully, Odyssey snapped them out of that doldrum. The same with Zelda. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were both attempts to recapture the Ocarina of Time lightning in a bottle. Breath of the Wild really shook things up for the franchise and brought it into the modern era.
  - iamdave 9y ago
    You're making the argument that Nintendo refreshes and tries to innovate within these franchises and producing more games by volume, I'm making the argument that it's not about how different this year's Mario game is from last year's Mario game, it's about me being tired of Mario games from Nintendo and wanting to see some new IP. Splatoon is right now the most recent name I can think of to come out of House Nintendo as a wholly original game IP. Before that I think the first new original name to come from them was Pikmin. And I'm NOT the only person who thinks this way. Nintendo has said so themselves. Five years ago[1]. And we're still got a new device with the same familiar platform drop titles: Mario, Mario Kart and Zelda. [1]https://www.nbcnews.com/technology/nintendo-admits-it-needs-new-video-game-franchise-6c10596642 https://www.nbcnews.com/technology/nintendo-admits-it-needs-... At least Naughty Dog, the creators of Crash Bandicoot got out of their comfort zone and explored multiple different IP, despite Crash ostensibly being to the PS1 what Mario was to the N64, and Sonic the Hedgehog was to the Sega Dreamcast.
deegles 9y ago
It's called Promotion Driven Development.
nojvek 9y ago
That’s the case for any big company. Middle management causes all sorts of inefficienties. At Microsoft there was a running joke, “No one got promoted for a refactor”. Piling on more features was the way up.

justicezyx 9y ago

Please stop forcing business decisions on engineers. Especially given https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16483241

gervase 9y ago
Not at all! If that came off as a criticism of the engineers, it wasn't - it's a well-known phenomenon for poorly-managed employees (and/or poor process), since humans will naturally (and fairly!) optimize for their own personal success.

Declanomous 9y ago

I've understood this to be the explanation for years now. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge, but it's what the Google Voice community has come up with to explain why we constantly get shoved to new platforms that absolutely suck. I mean seriously, every time google voice moves to a new platform it loses several features. It's one of the reasons why I avoid Google whenever possible. I went with Office 365 Enterprise over the Google solution for my business, and I use Linux as my primary desktop. Do you know how badly you have to mess up for a Linux user to look at your offerings and say "Well, I trust Microsoft more"?

georgemcbay 9y ago
I remember when I would be excited/happy when Google would acquire some software/service that I use. Surely this means the project will be well supported for the foreseeable future... why else would Google pay XXX million...?! These days the same announcements just fill me with dread and I expect the the software/service to be shutdown or gimped to the point of worthlessness within a year.
013a 9y ago
Are there any examples of core G-Suite products Google has deprecated? I can't think of any. Reminder that "Core G-Suite" is an official designation, not something I just made up. Right now, their Core G-Suite products are: Gmail, Drive, Docs, Sheets, Slides, Forms, Sites, Calendars, Hangouts, Hangouts Chat, Hangouts Meet, Plus, Keep, Vault, and Jamboard.
- Declanomous 9y ago
  They don't have to discontinue a product to massively screw with my workflow. All they need to do is change how the product is accessed, or the settings and labs features that are available. I mean, point being I don't trust them not to mess up my workflow. Even if I trusted them to not screw with the core g-suite products, I trust Microsoft more than Google at this point. If you had told me that I would trust Microsoft more than Google 5 years ago I would have literally thought you were insane.
  - mirhagk 9y ago
    Microsoft has been amazing at legacy support. The fact that they had an OS be supported for 12 years is pretty amazing. In contrast Ubuntu's LTS are only 5 years
- prepend 9y ago
  I’m still wary when they switched from free to pay for small businesses. I think in general it’s not a good idea to use free services for businesses, but in my mind it means that Google makes pretty big changes and don’t care if it disrupts you. Microsoft doesn’t do this or rarely does. If anything they start high and drop. Starting free and climbing is not good. But I don’t think they’ve ever dropped products entirely. Although hangouts has been titled a bunch of different things.

iamdave 9y ago

the easiest way to get a big, shiny product is to just re-launch the same projects over, and over, and over Replace Google with Nintendo. And before you get angry at me (and I would maybe say justifiably because I grew up with Nintendo as well), I recommend you sit through a few episodes of Zero Punctuation! covering any of the following titles: Mario, Legend of Zelda, Metroid or Smash Brothers and tell me if you detect a theme that that curmudgeon Croshaw is trying to get across. (Spoiler alert: Outside of their hardware division, Nintendo seems depressingly want for original ideas and IPs as far as gaming franchises go, which is probably a good thing to see Nintendo getting into the 'maker'verse with the switch cardboard stuff)

sweden 9y ago
You quote "re-launch the same projects over, and over, and over" and then you mention Metroid, one of the "less milked" Nintendo's franchises. And even Smash Bros, which has about 4 games in the entire 20 year span of the franchise. Even Mario and the Legend of Zelda, which have many many games, try to present something unique and innovative every game. I don't like to be frontal but I get a feeling that you don't have any idea of what you are talking about.
- bitwize 9y ago
  Mario games, in particular the New Super Mario Bros. series, were starting to get a bit samey. Thankfully, Odyssey snapped them out of that doldrum. The same with Zelda. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were both attempts to recapture the Ocarina of Time lightning in a bottle. Breath of the Wild really shook things up for the franchise and brought it into the modern era.
- iamdave 9y ago
  You're making the argument that Nintendo refreshes and tries to innovate within these franchises and producing more games by volume, I'm making the argument that it's not about how different this year's Mario game is from last year's Mario game, it's about me being tired of Mario games from Nintendo and wanting to see some new IP. Splatoon is right now the most recent name I can think of to come out of House Nintendo as a wholly original game IP. Before that I think the first new original name to come from them was Pikmin. And I'm NOT the only person who thinks this way. Nintendo has said so themselves. Five years ago[1]. And we're still got a new device with the same familiar platform drop titles: Mario, Mario Kart and Zelda. [1]https://www.nbcnews.com/technology/nintendo-admits-it-needs-new-video-game-franchise-6c10596642 https://www.nbcnews.com/technology/nintendo-admits-it-needs-... At least Naughty Dog, the creators of Crash Bandicoot got out of their comfort zone and explored multiple different IP, despite Crash ostensibly being to the PS1 what Mario was to the N64, and Sonic the Hedgehog was to the Sega Dreamcast.

deegles 9y ago

It's called Promotion Driven Development.

nojvek 9y ago

That’s the case for any big company. Middle management causes all sorts of inefficienties. At Microsoft there was a running joke, “No one got promoted for a refactor”. Piling on more features was the way up.