6 ms·

The Smart Set: On Animal Intelligence

51 points by Hooke 9y ago

petermcneeley 9y ago
Another good source for intelligence experimentation on primates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mentality_of_Apes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mentality_of_Apes
- johnmax 9y ago
  great book
ggm 9y ago
Intelligence begins to feel like the set of things which no matter how hard you try, you can't entirely pin down which are core, which are ephemeral, and which have to come together in the absence of direct communication. Say (hah) what you like about different cultures, we appear to be able to perform remarkably consistent reasoned, abstract interchanges with people we can't actually speak to, purely with stick-figure diagrams and hand-miming. Including communicating the idea "thats a lion, this is a parrot" to somebody who might not have actually seen either but has seen the lion king as a video, and watches youtube. I totally get that animals are now understood to have introspection, abstraction, abnegation, pride, lust, envy, altruism, you name it, we can show in crude form how animals have it. But, in the end, we completely fail and explaining why a subscription to the new york times is better than only reading four free articles a month. No grey parrot, dolphin or very smart dog appears able to grasp what we're saying. I love animals, and I feel empathetically connected with animals and as a meat-eater, I have some qualms about my a-moral stance eating obviously highly intelligent animals like pigs. But, and it is a crucial but, there is a really narrow band of communication they seem willing to engage with me in, which appears focussed on very direct basic drives of food and reward. they aren't really into higher abstract reasoning that centers on communication. Maybe they have a rich interior dialogue of abstact thought? Could we know? is an fMRI able to say that its not just dreaming, its having intelligent dreams? I think they don't actually want to display intelligence to me. I think. I probably believe they can't but I really doubt they even want to. Maybe they're smarter than they look?
- truculation 9y ago
  >no matter how hard you try, you can't entirely pin down which are core Yeah, there have been lots of guesses as to why humans are smart, haven't there, e.g. bipedalism, opposing thumbs, tool use, large brain, descended larynx. But the best guess so far IMO is that humans are optimised for meme transmission. For example, we can tell which way our mother is looking. This leads straightforwardly to language (words being memes which can be pronounced, as Daniel Dennett points out), and thence to culture. Which makes us super-smart. Animals don't seem to have reached cultural escape velocity yet.
  - pessimizer 9y ago
    Plenty of animals can tell which way I'm looking, and can teach each other things.
    - truculation 9y ago
      Yes, it's just that they can't do those things as efficiently as humans can. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/why-we-show-the-whites-of-our-eyes https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/why-we-show-the-whit...
- protonfish 9y ago
  When I hear people talking about how things are "mysterious" I assume that the actual answers are not difficult, but what they imply conflicts with what we want to believe to be true. In this instance, we want to think that we are separate from animals and that they are stupid objects. It helps us get through our days without too much guilt and remorse regarding how they are treated in our society. But the facts seem to be simple and clear: animals are highly intelligent and closely related to us. They are our brothers and sisters. I am not saying, "go vegan". I think our priority should first be improving how we treat other humans. There is a lot of opportunity for improvement there before we direct our energies to other animals.
  - pessimizer 9y ago

51 points by Hooke 9y ago

Another good source for intelligence experimentation on primates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mentality_of_Apes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mentality_of_Apes

johnmax 9y ago
great book

ggm 9y ago

Intelligence begins to feel like the set of things which no matter how hard you try, you can't entirely pin down which are core, which are ephemeral, and which have to come together in the absence of direct communication. Say (hah) what you like about different cultures, we appear to be able to perform remarkably consistent reasoned, abstract interchanges with people we can't actually speak to, purely with stick-figure diagrams and hand-miming. Including communicating the idea "thats a lion, this is a parrot" to somebody who might not have actually seen either but has seen the lion king as a video, and watches youtube. I totally get that animals are now understood to have introspection, abstraction, abnegation, pride, lust, envy, altruism, you name it, we can show in crude form how animals have it. But, in the end, we completely fail and explaining why a subscription to the new york times is better than only reading four free articles a month. No grey parrot, dolphin or very smart dog appears able to grasp what we're saying. I love animals, and I feel empathetically connected with animals and as a meat-eater, I have some qualms about my a-moral stance eating obviously highly intelligent animals like pigs. But, and it is a crucial but, there is a really narrow band of communication they seem willing to engage with me in, which appears focussed on very direct basic drives of food and reward. they aren't really into higher abstract reasoning that centers on communication. Maybe they have a rich interior dialogue of abstact thought? Could we know? is an fMRI able to say that its not just dreaming, its having intelligent dreams? I think they don't actually want to display intelligence to me. I think. I probably believe they can't but I really doubt they even want to. Maybe they're smarter than they look?

truculation 9y ago
>no matter how hard you try, you can't entirely pin down which are core Yeah, there have been lots of guesses as to why humans are smart, haven't there, e.g. bipedalism, opposing thumbs, tool use, large brain, descended larynx. But the best guess so far IMO is that humans are optimised for meme transmission. For example, we can tell which way our mother is looking. This leads straightforwardly to language (words being memes which can be pronounced, as Daniel Dennett points out), and thence to culture. Which makes us super-smart. Animals don't seem to have reached cultural escape velocity yet.
- pessimizer 9y ago
  Plenty of animals can tell which way I'm looking, and can teach each other things.
  - truculation 9y ago
    Yes, it's just that they can't do those things as efficiently as humans can. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/why-we-show-the-whites-of-our-eyes https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/why-we-show-the-whit...
protonfish 9y ago
When I hear people talking about how things are "mysterious" I assume that the actual answers are not difficult, but what they imply conflicts with what we want to believe to be true. In this instance, we want to think that we are separate from animals and that they are stupid objects. It helps us get through our days without too much guilt and remorse regarding how they are treated in our society. But the facts seem to be simple and clear: animals are highly intelligent and closely related to us. They are our brothers and sisters. I am not saying, "go vegan". I think our priority should first be improving how we treat other humans. There is a lot of opportunity for improvement there before we direct our energies to other animals.
- pessimizer 9y ago