11 ms·

As far as pastimes go it seems pretty innocent, but I guess one could argue that because jail is supposed to be punishment time passing actives aren't a priorit

As far as pastimes go it seems pretty innocent, but I guess one could argue that because jail is supposed to be punishment time passing actives aren't a priority (not saying I do or do not agree with that stance).

John23832 9y ago
That’s probably the problem. Jail/prison should primarily be for reform, not pusnishment. If I punish without helping you change, I’m only telling you to not get caught next time.
- labster 9y ago
  But how will the corporate prisons earn future profits if prisoners reform in jail?
  - eximius 9y ago
    Hire them?
    - tachyoff 9y ago
      Way easier to pay them like $0.15/hour in prison than the federally-mandated minimum wage. (That number might be hyperbole, but prison wages, if they even exist where you are, are abysmally, illegally low. I believe some of them are indeed sub-dollar.)
      - kamaal 9y ago
        Slavery is protected by law under the 13th Amendment.
        labster 9y ago
        Yes, it doesn't apply in prison: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
      - gorogue 9y ago
        20 years ago in Ohio, the average was $18 per month. But you could make (a little) more if you made clothes for the prison industry. And all that was spent on soap, toothpaste, and other necessities that the state didn't provide.
      - eximius 9y ago
        I meant after they served their sentence...
  - Jeff_Brown 9y ago
    Prison and wealth inequality are similarly socially inefficient. Human capital is our most valuable resource, and we systematically waste it by depriving people of the opportunity to improve themselves.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  Criminal justice is for reforming but also deterring criminals. If it were only for the former reason, capital punishment wouldn't exist.
  - scarmig 9y ago
    Whether prisons are effective for deterrence is an empirical question. As it turns out, they're not particularly effective. The people who go and hold up a convenience store aren't doing it because of a reasoned cost-benefit analysis based on risk of capture, differential value of prison vs freedom, and future discount rates. They're doing it because they don't do those things. That leaves three real reasons: 1) Reform 2) Reducing society's exposure to criminal elements 3) Punishment as a moral good in itself, as a way to rectify injustice.
    - abakker 9y ago
      To add to this is a simple truism, "people commit crimes because they don't think they'll be caught". Sure, it's not always true, but it encapsulates a lot of the mindset.
    - dictum 9y ago
      > The people who go and hold up a convenience store aren't doing it because of a reasoned cost-benefit analysis based on risk of capture, differential value of prison vs freedom, and future discount rates. They're doing it because they don't do those things. Conversely, at least some percentage of the people who don't have made that cost-benefit analysis. Plus some part of the people who go and commit felonies, mainly the young and naive, have made at least some basic cost-benefit analysis; they mistakenly think they'll be the leaders/tough ones in prison and it'll be okay. I'm not a fan of the punitive prison model, but fear of consequences is a good deterrent. (I sound like an uptight prick, but I'm speaking from experience. Then again, I've never been in a US prison, so I can't say much about them and I don't like what little I know)
      - scarmig 9y ago
        ...and the point is that the elasticity of crime with respect to punishment is minimal. You're saying those people exist, which is true and undisputed, but they're relatively rare and statistically insignificant, and not a useful angle for thinking about policy.
- tdeck 9y ago
  The Reveal podcast did an excellent bit where an undercover reporter worked as a prison guard: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.revealnews.org/episodes/the-man-inside-four-months-as-a-prison-guard/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.revealnews.org/episodes/the... One of the things that really struck me is that when the prison stopped offering programs to occupy the inmates time, they tended to fill it themselves. By getting into fights. So aside from the punishment aspect, there seems to be real value to the system to have pastimes that keep a lid on things, be they work programs, classes, or a cheap board game.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  Your point is valid, but I disagree about the primary purpose of prison. The primary purpose is to protect broader society by removing bad actors. If you can also reform the prisoner, then that's a bonus.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    That would be inefficient unless you plan on removing bad actors permanently. That would mean life-long sentence for all, even minor, infractions. This is obviously not sustainable. The goal is to remove bad actors by re-educating them to no longer be bad actors. It's the only viable alternative. The other goal is to punish bad actors, thus bringing justice back into balance.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      I didn't intend for it to be either/or. If removing bad actors from the general population wasn't the first priority, then there wouldn't be prisons at all. There would only be fines, etc.
thomaskcr 9y ago
I think that's a cynical view on their reasoning -- if anything prisoners not being bored is in their best interest in terms of keeping guards safe. My guess is that a lot of problems stem from gambling debts -- you can allow cards and stem gambling a bit by preventing chips from being introduced (in whatever form). With DnD tracking across the game is important so it's not as easy to prevent a ledger from forming.
nkrisc 9y ago
If we were solely concerned with punishment it would probably be far cheaper to sentence them to 20 lashes and send them on their way.

John23832 9y ago

That’s probably the problem. Jail/prison should primarily be for reform, not pusnishment. If I punish without helping you change, I’m only telling you to not get caught next time.

labster 9y ago
But how will the corporate prisons earn future profits if prisoners reform in jail?
- eximius 9y ago
  Hire them?
  - tachyoff 9y ago
    Way easier to pay them like $0.15/hour in prison than the federally-mandated minimum wage. (That number might be hyperbole, but prison wages, if they even exist where you are, are abysmally, illegally low. I believe some of them are indeed sub-dollar.)
    - kamaal 9y ago
      Slavery is protected by law under the 13th Amendment.
      - labster 9y ago
        Yes, it doesn't apply in prison: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    - gorogue 9y ago
      20 years ago in Ohio, the average was $18 per month. But you could make (a little) more if you made clothes for the prison industry. And all that was spent on soap, toothpaste, and other necessities that the state didn't provide.
    - eximius 9y ago
      I meant after they served their sentence...
- Jeff_Brown 9y ago
  Prison and wealth inequality are similarly socially inefficient. Human capital is our most valuable resource, and we systematically waste it by depriving people of the opportunity to improve themselves.
paulddraper 9y ago
Criminal justice is for reforming but also deterring criminals. If it were only for the former reason, capital punishment wouldn't exist.
- scarmig 9y ago
  Whether prisons are effective for deterrence is an empirical question. As it turns out, they're not particularly effective. The people who go and hold up a convenience store aren't doing it because of a reasoned cost-benefit analysis based on risk of capture, differential value of prison vs freedom, and future discount rates. They're doing it because they don't do those things. That leaves three real reasons: 1) Reform 2) Reducing society's exposure to criminal elements 3) Punishment as a moral good in itself, as a way to rectify injustice.
  - abakker 9y ago
    To add to this is a simple truism, "people commit crimes because they don't think they'll be caught". Sure, it's not always true, but it encapsulates a lot of the mindset.
  - dictum 9y ago
    > The people who go and hold up a convenience store aren't doing it because of a reasoned cost-benefit analysis based on risk of capture, differential value of prison vs freedom, and future discount rates. They're doing it because they don't do those things. Conversely, at least some percentage of the people who don't have made that cost-benefit analysis. Plus some part of the people who go and commit felonies, mainly the young and naive, have made at least some basic cost-benefit analysis; they mistakenly think they'll be the leaders/tough ones in prison and it'll be okay. I'm not a fan of the punitive prison model, but fear of consequences is a good deterrent. (I sound like an uptight prick, but I'm speaking from experience. Then again, I've never been in a US prison, so I can't say much about them and I don't like what little I know)
    - scarmig 9y ago
      ...and the point is that the elasticity of crime with respect to punishment is minimal. You're saying those people exist, which is true and undisputed, but they're relatively rare and statistically insignificant, and not a useful angle for thinking about policy.
tdeck 9y ago
The Reveal podcast did an excellent bit where an undercover reporter worked as a prison guard: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.revealnews.org/episodes/the-man-inside-four-months-as-a-prison-guard/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.revealnews.org/episodes/the... One of the things that really struck me is that when the prison stopped offering programs to occupy the inmates time, they tended to fill it themselves. By getting into fights. So aside from the punishment aspect, there seems to be real value to the system to have pastimes that keep a lid on things, be they work programs, classes, or a cheap board game.
Consultant32452 9y ago
Your point is valid, but I disagree about the primary purpose of prison. The primary purpose is to protect broader society by removing bad actors. If you can also reform the prisoner, then that's a bonus.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  That would be inefficient unless you plan on removing bad actors permanently. That would mean life-long sentence for all, even minor, infractions. This is obviously not sustainable. The goal is to remove bad actors by re-educating them to no longer be bad actors. It's the only viable alternative. The other goal is to punish bad actors, thus bringing justice back into balance.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    I didn't intend for it to be either/or. If removing bad actors from the general population wasn't the first priority, then there wouldn't be prisons at all. There would only be fines, etc.

thomaskcr 9y ago

I think that's a cynical view on their reasoning -- if anything prisoners not being bored is in their best interest in terms of keeping guards safe. My guess is that a lot of problems stem from gambling debts -- you can allow cards and stem gambling a bit by preventing chips from being introduced (in whatever form). With DnD tracking across the game is important so it's not as easy to prevent a ledger from forming.

nkrisc 9y ago

If we were solely concerned with punishment it would probably be far cheaper to sentence them to 20 lashes and send them on their way.