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"most computer science students transition directly from graduate school to an industry job, as opposed to a teaching position, because of the stark contrast in

by dsr_ 9y ago

"most computer science students transition directly from graduate school to an industry job, as opposed to a teaching position, because of the stark contrast in employment incentives and opportunities." Or they leave for an industry job before grad school, because a Ph.D is not a money-making proposition compared with three to five years of experience while making a salary. But the biggest problem is this: academics are afraid of anyone who hasn't demonstrated commitment to their system by earning a Ph.D, writing a thesis, and accepting terrible wages and living conditions for a number of years as junior or adjunct faculty. So the number of 50 year old software engineers who decide to semi-retire and take up an academic position is effectively zero.

throwawayjobsea 9y ago
> But the biggest problem is this: academics are afraid of anyone who hasn't demonstrated commitment to their system by earning a Ph.D, writing a thesis, and accepting terrible wages and living conditions for a number of years as junior or adjunct faculty. So the number of 50 year old software engineers who decide to semi-retire and take up an academic position is effectively zero. A few thoughts: 1. Many schools who are willing to give up on the "traditional" job candidate profile are still have a very hard time hiring. I know this from many, many conversations with department and search committee chairs and lower-ranked places. 2. Hiring non-phds isn't always an option for higher-ranked (and especially mid-ranked) institutions. It'd be great if Google only used the data they collect in ways that enhance their users' experience. But it's unreasonable to expect an ad company to not use their data assets to sell ads. There's something analogous going on with hiring non-phd faculty to teach -- institutions involved in a rankings war should only care about maximizing educational outcomes, but we live in the real world and metrics do matter. 3. Most importantly, maybe these places are right to be skeptical! Engineering isn't teaching, and many of those who can do, cannot teach. I've seen a lot of situations where semi-retired industry folks don't take teaching seriously. The permeated anecdotes from industry are valuable, but not valuable enough to compensate for poorly structured courses or failing to explain tree rotations in an intelligible way. It doesn't help that teaching loads demand a 40 hour week, but teaching salaries only pay for 15-20 hours of even semi-retired engineering time.
michaelmior 9y ago
I think "terrible" is overstated with respect to wages and living conditions in most cases. Yes, you can generally make a salary several times larger working outside of academia. However, faculty positions still generally pay reasonably well, especially when compared to those living in conditions of poverty.
- iaw 9y ago
  > faculty positions still generally pay reasonably well, Not in certain fields when you consider opportunity cost > especially when compared to those living in conditions of poverty. I really hope that we're not going to set the baseline of comparison at poverty levels for the people that can obtain faculty positions in CS.
  - michaelmior 9y ago
    I'm not suggesting that be the baseline. But I think it's important to put things in perspective. I am pulling these numbers out of thin air, but suppose you're making $100K/yr as a faculty member vs $300K/yr in in industry. Although I made those numbers up, I don't think they're unreasonable. And yes, you generally take a huge potential pay cut to be an academic, but CS faculty are also generally paid good living wages.
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      $100K would be a fully tenured professor at a good school, and some time under their belt. Even then, $100K is on the high end of the scale. There are exceptions that go significantly higher even without tenure, but the average with tenure is closer to $80K.
      - randcraw 9y ago
        Here's some reference data. At U of Michigan, these professorial wages are typical in CS (and are publicly listed): lecturer: $80K assistant: $110K associate: $110-130K full: $150-190K BTW, I see that the UofM CS dept. employs a lot more (3X?) lecturers in CS now than they did 15 years ago -- another sign of high demand/low supply for PhDs in academe.

by dsr_ 9y ago

throwawayjobsea 9y ago

> But the biggest problem is this: academics are afraid of anyone who hasn't demonstrated commitment to their system by earning a Ph.D, writing a thesis, and accepting terrible wages and living conditions for a number of years as junior or adjunct faculty. So the number of 50 year old software engineers who decide to semi-retire and take up an academic position is effectively zero. A few thoughts: 1. Many schools who are willing to give up on the "traditional" job candidate profile are still have a very hard time hiring. I know this from many, many conversations with department and search committee chairs and lower-ranked places. 2. Hiring non-phds isn't always an option for higher-ranked (and especially mid-ranked) institutions. It'd be great if Google only used the data they collect in ways that enhance their users' experience. But it's unreasonable to expect an ad company to not use their data assets to sell ads. There's something analogous going on with hiring non-phd faculty to teach -- institutions involved in a rankings war should only care about maximizing educational outcomes, but we live in the real world and metrics do matter. 3. Most importantly, maybe these places are right to be skeptical! Engineering isn't teaching, and many of those who can do, cannot teach. I've seen a lot of situations where semi-retired industry folks don't take teaching seriously. The permeated anecdotes from industry are valuable, but not valuable enough to compensate for poorly structured courses or failing to explain tree rotations in an intelligible way. It doesn't help that teaching loads demand a 40 hour week, but teaching salaries only pay for 15-20 hours of even semi-retired engineering time.

michaelmior 9y ago

I think "terrible" is overstated with respect to wages and living conditions in most cases. Yes, you can generally make a salary several times larger working outside of academia. However, faculty positions still generally pay reasonably well, especially when compared to those living in conditions of poverty.

iaw 9y ago
> faculty positions still generally pay reasonably well, Not in certain fields when you consider opportunity cost > especially when compared to those living in conditions of poverty. I really hope that we're not going to set the baseline of comparison at poverty levels for the people that can obtain faculty positions in CS.
- michaelmior 9y ago
  I'm not suggesting that be the baseline. But I think it's important to put things in perspective. I am pulling these numbers out of thin air, but suppose you're making $100K/yr as a faculty member vs $300K/yr in in industry. Although I made those numbers up, I don't think they're unreasonable. And yes, you generally take a huge potential pay cut to be an academic, but CS faculty are also generally paid good living wages.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    $100K would be a fully tenured professor at a good school, and some time under their belt. Even then, $100K is on the high end of the scale. There are exceptions that go significantly higher even without tenure, but the average with tenure is closer to $80K.
    - randcraw 9y ago
      Here's some reference data. At U of Michigan, these professorial wages are typical in CS (and are publicly listed): lecturer: $80K assistant: $110K associate: $110-130K full: $150-190K BTW, I see that the UofM CS dept. employs a lot more (3X?) lecturers in CS now than they did 15 years ago -- another sign of high demand/low supply for PhDs in academe.