5 ms·

The article really resonated with me, as it's eerily similar to my own experience at Microsoft a couple of years back. Constant reorgs, resulting in projects be

The article really resonated with me, as it's eerily similar to my own experience at Microsoft a couple of years back. Constant reorgs, resulting in projects being cancelled, resulting in lack of motivation, as months of your hard work are thrown out due to unclear decisions by the management. I too was hoping for a senior level promotion. The last project I worked on, I was the only non-senior level developer in a team of 5. I went out of my way to ensure we released a well designed, built and tested system on time. At times I felt like I was committing more to the project than any of my more senior comrades. Come release time, I even saw one of the design decisions I had insisted on save us from down-time. All of this I was sure would lead me to the desired promotion. Come performance review time, I was rated at the top performance tier, as I had the past couple of years. Unfortunately however, I was informed not enough time had passed since my last level increase, but I was sure to get it if I kept it up for another 1-2 years. It's hard to describe the feeling of defeat I felt at that point. I resigned and left within the next few months. What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay. Doesn't feel great when negotiations with your employer are comparable to those had with your cable provider.

cableshaft 9y ago
> What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay. Doesn't feel great when negotiations with your employer are comparable to those had with your cable provider. Wow, that's one hell of a way to look at things. Thanks for that perspective.
- colordrops 9y ago
  Both are businesses, and most successful businesses are sociopathic. That includes game theory both with customers and internal resources. You are a "human resource", not a friend.
  - overeater 9y ago
    This is where I think academia has got it right. When you do something, you get full credit on it -- your name on the paper, your face on the book and department website, you're the one giving the presentation, you're the one who gets the benefits if it's commercialized (after the university takes its cut). Loyalty also is valued (or a less negative word to use is being a team player), as people write recommendation letters for each other and their reputation is at stake when they do anything.
- wepple 9y ago
  Yeah that’s a great way to phrase it. I always got frustrated with counter-offers upon resignation, as it’s the most vivid “yeah we could definitely have paid you this because you’re worth it, but only if we know you’re really mad”
  - jopsen 9y ago
    On the other hand isn't it also a face saving out allowing you stay? - I'm sure many people quit without being 100% sure :)
wetpaws 9y ago
The simplest way at this point would be just to apply to other company at the senior position and then re-apply back.
bowmessage 9y ago
"when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview" This is a huge issue... You should have more actively met with them.
- deathanatos 9y ago
  I've been in corporations where this is not always possible. (Mostly, politically speaking, though IIRC at one job my grandboss was not located in my building/city.)
- lovich 9y ago
  Everywhere I have worked, if I had gone to my manager's manager without his explicit instruction to do so, would have led to my manager spending 100% of his time trying to get me fired because I would not be a wild card in terms of messaging to his boss. Undoubtedly there are places where this is not the case, but in any workplace where politics have taken over skipping the hiearchy leads to nothing but political warfare
  - DontGiveTwoFlux 9y ago
    Sounds like your bosses have been a little micromanagey. Talking to more senior managers have been great ways for me to gain valuable perspectives on their goals and ask questions about how to achieve them. They should also be interested in a more unfiltered view from talking to the rank and file.
    - lovich 9y ago
      I agree, it's been politicking on my managers part
ascendantlogic 9y ago
From the company's perspective it's always a game of getting maximum effort/value for minimum price. From the employee's perspective it's the exact opposite: maximum price for minimum effort/value. If they can dangle that carrot in front of you and get you to give 110% at your current pay scale for 1-2 more years then why the hell wouldn't they do it? And how many people grind away on that treadmill after having that conversation with their boss? For every post like this there's gotta be hundreds if not thousands of people at these big companies that put their noses back to the grindstone to keep chasing that promotion. To be sure I'm not downplaying your commentary. It's extremely illuminative and very well written. After almost 20 years in the industry I've learned the burning truth of it all, though. Loyalty to individuals is worthwhile. Loyalty to companies is meaningless. Be earnest and caring in your interactions with individual coworkers but feel nothing as you squeeze every drop you can out of the company because that's exactly what they're trying to do to you.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  "If they can dangle that carrot in front of you and get you to give 110% at your current pay scale for 1-2 more years then why the hell wouldn't they do it?" Cause that's a shitty thing to do. And, as shown, it leads to people leaving.
  - NeoBasilisk 9y ago
    doesn't matter when there is always a fresh new grad who doesn't know any better waiting to take your place
    - olleromam91 9y ago
      Would be nice if 22-24 yr olds weren't the majority of people building the infrastructure of the free world though =/
  - ascendantlogic 9y ago
    Yes, (most) people care that it's a shitty thing to do, but again companies like this do not. Their goal is to grind as much productivity out of you for as cheap as possible. It sounds fatalistic but it's just how it is. Romanticizing things just leads to heartbreak. EDIT: Note I said "companies like this". There are clearly companies that are run at the top by compassionate, non-shitty people and those values filter down through the org. However, as companies get larger and especially once they are beholden to investors and ESPECIALLY when they are beholden to public investors that seems to die a gradual death.
mrisoli 9y ago
Well, the goal of a promotion is to both enable the employee to get more responsibilities and the company to get more out of the employee. If you're already putting in as much as the senior folk without being one the company has no upside in offering a promotion with the exception of employee retention/reducing employee turnover, so it is fitting that they'd offer it when you are about to leave.
- sixstringtheory 9y ago
  Wow, this just brought me back to a "career ladder" conversation I had once upon a time, where my manager said that they promote people to positions when they're already operating at that level. Sounded good at the time, I never realized the implications until now.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    Isn't that kind of what the Peter principle says? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
greggarious 9y ago
>What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay. Did you meet anyone who had taken that option? I thought it was commonly viewed a bad idea to take a counter offer, since most companies will lay you off or never promote you again due to perceived disloyalty?
- martinraag 9y ago
  I know of someone (not in the same company) who was offered a one time large cash bonus to stay for at least 12 more months. He took the offer. Unfortunately I don't know where that has lead to in his relationship with the employer. I too would be interested in knowing if that has actually worked out for anyone long term.
  - nilkn 9y ago
    It worked out for me long-term. It really depends on a lot of factors. In my case: * I didn't actively seek out employment elsewhere. A place I'd interviewed at and turned down in the past contacted me again after they'd finished a large fundraising round. They had a new office, and I was curious just to see how they'd progressed. The whole thing happened fast and they ended up offering me a 50% raise. * I preferred my current workplace in basically every way except for money. * I had a great relationship with my boss, who also held a lot of power in the company. * I wasn't really "just another" developer at the company but was doing some pretty important work. They matched the offer (exceeded it, really), I took the counteroffer and stayed, and two years later I've been promoted two levels and given multiple further raises and bonuses.
    - jimbob21 9y ago
      Well that's the difference then, you were headhunted and they wanted you to stay. That isn't perceived disloyalty, it is the exact opposite: you wanted to stay there but be compensated the same way.
- 9y ago

cableshaft 9y ago

> What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay. Doesn't feel great when negotiations with your employer are comparable to those had with your cable provider. Wow, that's one hell of a way to look at things. Thanks for that perspective.

colordrops 9y ago
Both are businesses, and most successful businesses are sociopathic. That includes game theory both with customers and internal resources. You are a "human resource", not a friend.
- overeater 9y ago
  This is where I think academia has got it right. When you do something, you get full credit on it -- your name on the paper, your face on the book and department website, you're the one giving the presentation, you're the one who gets the benefits if it's commercialized (after the university takes its cut). Loyalty also is valued (or a less negative word to use is being a team player), as people write recommendation letters for each other and their reputation is at stake when they do anything.
wepple 9y ago
Yeah that’s a great way to phrase it. I always got frustrated with counter-offers upon resignation, as it’s the most vivid “yeah we could definitely have paid you this because you’re worth it, but only if we know you’re really mad”
- jopsen 9y ago
  On the other hand isn't it also a face saving out allowing you stay? - I'm sure many people quit without being 100% sure :)

wetpaws 9y ago

The simplest way at this point would be just to apply to other company at the senior position and then re-apply back.

bowmessage 9y ago

"when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview" This is a huge issue... You should have more actively met with them.

deathanatos 9y ago
I've been in corporations where this is not always possible. (Mostly, politically speaking, though IIRC at one job my grandboss was not located in my building/city.)
lovich 9y ago
Everywhere I have worked, if I had gone to my manager's manager without his explicit instruction to do so, would have led to my manager spending 100% of his time trying to get me fired because I would not be a wild card in terms of messaging to his boss. Undoubtedly there are places where this is not the case, but in any workplace where politics have taken over skipping the hiearchy leads to nothing but political warfare
- DontGiveTwoFlux 9y ago
  Sounds like your bosses have been a little micromanagey. Talking to more senior managers have been great ways for me to gain valuable perspectives on their goals and ask questions about how to achieve them. They should also be interested in a more unfiltered view from talking to the rank and file.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I agree, it's been politicking on my managers part

ascendantlogic 9y ago

From the company's perspective it's always a game of getting maximum effort/value for minimum price. From the employee's perspective it's the exact opposite: maximum price for minimum effort/value. If they can dangle that carrot in front of you and get you to give 110% at your current pay scale for 1-2 more years then why the hell wouldn't they do it? And how many people grind away on that treadmill after having that conversation with their boss? For every post like this there's gotta be hundreds if not thousands of people at these big companies that put their noses back to the grindstone to keep chasing that promotion. To be sure I'm not downplaying your commentary. It's extremely illuminative and very well written. After almost 20 years in the industry I've learned the burning truth of it all, though. Loyalty to individuals is worthwhile. Loyalty to companies is meaningless. Be earnest and caring in your interactions with individual coworkers but feel nothing as you squeeze every drop you can out of the company because that's exactly what they're trying to do to you.

s73v3r_ 9y ago
"If they can dangle that carrot in front of you and get you to give 110% at your current pay scale for 1-2 more years then why the hell wouldn't they do it?" Cause that's a shitty thing to do. And, as shown, it leads to people leaving.
- NeoBasilisk 9y ago
  doesn't matter when there is always a fresh new grad who doesn't know any better waiting to take your place
  - olleromam91 9y ago
    Would be nice if 22-24 yr olds weren't the majority of people building the infrastructure of the free world though =/
- ascendantlogic 9y ago
  Yes, (most) people care that it's a shitty thing to do, but again companies like this do not. Their goal is to grind as much productivity out of you for as cheap as possible. It sounds fatalistic but it's just how it is. Romanticizing things just leads to heartbreak. EDIT: Note I said "companies like this". There are clearly companies that are run at the top by compassionate, non-shitty people and those values filter down through the org. However, as companies get larger and especially once they are beholden to investors and ESPECIALLY when they are beholden to public investors that seems to die a gradual death.

mrisoli 9y ago

Well, the goal of a promotion is to both enable the employee to get more responsibilities and the company to get more out of the employee. If you're already putting in as much as the senior folk without being one the company has no upside in offering a promotion with the exception of employee retention/reducing employee turnover, so it is fitting that they'd offer it when you are about to leave.

sixstringtheory 9y ago
Wow, this just brought me back to a "career ladder" conversation I had once upon a time, where my manager said that they promote people to positions when they're already operating at that level. Sounded good at the time, I never realized the implications until now.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  Isn't that kind of what the Peter principle says? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

greggarious 9y ago

>What I found most off putting, was when meeting my skip-manager (your managers manager) for the first time during my exit interview, all doors for a senior level promotion were suddenly open, to incentivise me to stay. Did you meet anyone who had taken that option? I thought it was commonly viewed a bad idea to take a counter offer, since most companies will lay you off or never promote you again due to perceived disloyalty?

martinraag 9y ago
I know of someone (not in the same company) who was offered a one time large cash bonus to stay for at least 12 more months. He took the offer. Unfortunately I don't know where that has lead to in his relationship with the employer. I too would be interested in knowing if that has actually worked out for anyone long term.
- nilkn 9y ago
  It worked out for me long-term. It really depends on a lot of factors. In my case: * I didn't actively seek out employment elsewhere. A place I'd interviewed at and turned down in the past contacted me again after they'd finished a large fundraising round. They had a new office, and I was curious just to see how they'd progressed. The whole thing happened fast and they ended up offering me a 50% raise. * I preferred my current workplace in basically every way except for money. * I had a great relationship with my boss, who also held a lot of power in the company. * I wasn't really "just another" developer at the company but was doing some pretty important work. They matched the offer (exceeded it, really), I took the counteroffer and stayed, and two years later I've been promoted two levels and given multiple further raises and bonuses.
  - jimbob21 9y ago
    Well that's the difference then, you were headhunted and they wanted you to stay. That isn't perceived disloyalty, it is the exact opposite: you wanted to stay there but be compensated the same way.
9y ago