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So IF the future favours China, and IF the west lets it happen without outright/proxy war, and China wins... with all these ML techniques in hand, and with all

So IF the future favours China, and IF the west lets it happen without outright/proxy war, and China wins... with all these ML techniques in hand, and with all of our digital footprints slapped around everywhere, am I paranoid to assume that even this comment can be construed to have 12% negative sentiment towards the CCP? And the cut off for "Normal Dissident Sentiment Levels" was 10% so I'm going to one of their camps?

runeb 9y ago
That assumes China becomes the world. Seems far fetched. But assuming western countries would not follow their practices also seems far fetched. I feel the west already does much of the surveillance China does, only not as openly. Our camps are reserved for terrorists for the time being. Pray that term does not get expanded.
- liberte82 9y ago
  We do a lot of the same stuff, it's just framed completely differently under the label of freedom. I feel that even if the US became a dictatorship, there would be denial about it, likely we would continue to hold mock elections ala Russia, or maybe even real elections where the outcome is clear because the people have been so thoroughly controlled and manipulated. It reminds me a lot of 1984 where the three different powers, on the surface, have utterly different values, but in the end act in exactly the same ways.
  - cromwellian 9y ago
    It’s really a false equivalence the kind of stuff the NSA or FBI does is different in kind and character than what’s going on in Xinjiang. What the NSA does is largely invisible to you and has a low probability of affecting you. The surveillance and security apparatus in Xinjiang is very visible, residents must install monitoring apps on their phones or face punishment, casual conversation or even expression of religious traditions can get you a visit and interview by the security apparatus. I’m afraid to even message people I met last year in Xinjiang for fear that communication with foreigners could flag them for scrutiny. FISA warrants, national security letters, PRISM, MUSCULAR, etc are all things that highly concern us, but I think Uighurs would trade what we have for theirs in a heart beat.
    - liberte82 9y ago
      Yes, I didn’t mean to say we are there yet, just that the apparatus is in place and we’re moving rapidly in that direction. But I do think that when it happens, it will take a different flavour in the US that uses American values and sensibilities, and in the end Americans will support it just as the Chinese do their government.
- nashashmi 9y ago
  It does not seem so far fetched in current times. Nationalism, Racial/political/group supremacy, opinion extremism/supremacy leads to wide scale divide. And has always been the achilles heal leading to the fall of many nations throughout history. Unity, even the unity found in Russia, China, and North Korea, has caused nations to reach higher levels of greatness and prosperity. Hence, the reason China is so concerned about dissent.
  - toasterlovin 9y ago
    Authoritarians don't quash dissent so that their nation can achieve higher levels of greatness and prosperity. They do it to maintain control.
    - nashashmi 9y ago
      maintain control TO achieve higher levels of greatness and prosperity Atleast that is what the Chinese Communist Party is all about. They are significantly engineering and technical backgrounds, not politicians. They cannot weave and deceive through people issues.
      - toasterlovin 9y ago
        So what you're telling me is that all the politicians figured out that they need to get an engineering degree in order to have viable political career?
        nashashmi 9y ago
        Actually what I am trying to say is that politics in China runs very differently than it does in other countries.
        toasterlovin 9y ago
        What I’m saying is that “we’re doing this bad thing to further the greatness of China” is a justification for what’s going on, not an explanation. I mean, if a thief took your wallet, would you believe them when they explained that they did so for safekeeping?
- mcguire 9y ago
  One should choose one's enemies carefully. You become them.
dictum 9y ago
I'm extra paranoid and a likely outlier, but I'm already regretting what little displeasure I show towards the CCP on the Internet. I think what increases my worry is how, in other leading countries, at least 30-50% of the population is wary/skeptical of the government at any time. With China – my impression may be tinged by the activities of the 50 cent army – most citizens seem to accept the party says, with particular distaste for people who dare protest. It's hard to say for certain: China doesn't really participate on the English-speaking Web.
- liberte82 9y ago
  The right in America is starting to up their noise about Chinese shills on the internet, while the left continues to make noise about the Russian shills. We're in a way being made into a proxy where Americans are making their allegiances to either Russia or China.
singularity2001 9y ago
>> so I'm going to one of their camps? You used the world Normal with capital N, so yes

runeb 9y ago

That assumes China becomes the world. Seems far fetched. But assuming western countries would not follow their practices also seems far fetched. I feel the west already does much of the surveillance China does, only not as openly. Our camps are reserved for terrorists for the time being. Pray that term does not get expanded.

liberte82 9y ago
We do a lot of the same stuff, it's just framed completely differently under the label of freedom. I feel that even if the US became a dictatorship, there would be denial about it, likely we would continue to hold mock elections ala Russia, or maybe even real elections where the outcome is clear because the people have been so thoroughly controlled and manipulated. It reminds me a lot of 1984 where the three different powers, on the surface, have utterly different values, but in the end act in exactly the same ways.
- cromwellian 9y ago
  It’s really a false equivalence the kind of stuff the NSA or FBI does is different in kind and character than what’s going on in Xinjiang. What the NSA does is largely invisible to you and has a low probability of affecting you. The surveillance and security apparatus in Xinjiang is very visible, residents must install monitoring apps on their phones or face punishment, casual conversation or even expression of religious traditions can get you a visit and interview by the security apparatus. I’m afraid to even message people I met last year in Xinjiang for fear that communication with foreigners could flag them for scrutiny. FISA warrants, national security letters, PRISM, MUSCULAR, etc are all things that highly concern us, but I think Uighurs would trade what we have for theirs in a heart beat.
  - liberte82 9y ago
    Yes, I didn’t mean to say we are there yet, just that the apparatus is in place and we’re moving rapidly in that direction. But I do think that when it happens, it will take a different flavour in the US that uses American values and sensibilities, and in the end Americans will support it just as the Chinese do their government.
nashashmi 9y ago
It does not seem so far fetched in current times. Nationalism, Racial/political/group supremacy, opinion extremism/supremacy leads to wide scale divide. And has always been the achilles heal leading to the fall of many nations throughout history. Unity, even the unity found in Russia, China, and North Korea, has caused nations to reach higher levels of greatness and prosperity. Hence, the reason China is so concerned about dissent.
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  Authoritarians don't quash dissent so that their nation can achieve higher levels of greatness and prosperity. They do it to maintain control.
  - nashashmi 9y ago
    maintain control TO achieve higher levels of greatness and prosperity Atleast that is what the Chinese Communist Party is all about. They are significantly engineering and technical backgrounds, not politicians. They cannot weave and deceive through people issues.
    - toasterlovin 9y ago
      So what you're telling me is that all the politicians figured out that they need to get an engineering degree in order to have viable political career?
      - nashashmi 9y ago
        Actually what I am trying to say is that politics in China runs very differently than it does in other countries.
        toasterlovin 9y ago
        What I’m saying is that “we’re doing this bad thing to further the greatness of China” is a justification for what’s going on, not an explanation. I mean, if a thief took your wallet, would you believe them when they explained that they did so for safekeeping?
mcguire 9y ago
One should choose one's enemies carefully. You become them.

dictum 9y ago

I'm extra paranoid and a likely outlier, but I'm already regretting what little displeasure I show towards the CCP on the Internet. I think what increases my worry is how, in other leading countries, at least 30-50% of the population is wary/skeptical of the government at any time. With China – my impression may be tinged by the activities of the 50 cent army – most citizens seem to accept the party says, with particular distaste for people who dare protest. It's hard to say for certain: China doesn't really participate on the English-speaking Web.

liberte82 9y ago
The right in America is starting to up their noise about Chinese shills on the internet, while the left continues to make noise about the Russian shills. We're in a way being made into a proxy where Americans are making their allegiances to either Russia or China.

singularity2001 9y ago

>> so I'm going to one of their camps? You used the world Normal with capital N, so yes