3 ms·

Most of papers made of paper are absolutely not available for verification. Ditto for research articles behind paywall or just cited as paper sources. You could

Most of papers made of paper are absolutely not available for verification. Ditto for research articles behind paywall or just cited as paper sources. You could invent dozens of such credible sources with no chances for anybody to ever check. I can understand "we could not verify this so we are deleting this article", but not "we speedy deleted this article without checking anything". The latter has no excuses except for obvious commercial spam.

ghaff 9y ago
The correlation between notability and verifiability certainly starts to break down quickly once you get past easily accessible, well-known, and well-regarded sources. No one is going to chase down paper copies of obscure magazines, newspapers, or out-of-print books to verify some statement, especially if it's not highly questionable for some reason. The system does kinda work because most people aren't outright inventing fake references to game the system.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  What would be your criteria for the system failing to work? What can go visibly wrong if Wikipedia would cover different subset of obscure topics than it does currently? We're not talking about faking facts in well-visited articles, since a) that's not what is being discussed, and b) that has been done anyway, getting into news multiple times.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    To me, "failing to work" would mean not really usable across a wide range of domains. I can find plenty to fault with Wikipedia including the fact that it tilts further in the deletionist direction than would be my personal choice. A failure to include a lot more articles on relatively obscure topics may be a shortcoming but it probably doesn't, at the end of the day, make Wikipedia a lot less useful for the typical person.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      Is Wikipedia useful today? Absolutely. Does deletionism sometimes leads to embarrassing results? As witnessed, it does. Would less deletionism lead to Wikipedia becoming "not really usable across a wide range of domains"? I can't see how it would, neither could you. So I would argue that Wikipedia deletion policy is considerably suboptimal.
      - posterboy 9y ago
        Wikipedia is like a subgraph of the internet. Are there good reasons for certain sites to be blocked on the net? Yes? Should I just be allowed to call you a stupid plucktwit as if I was f'in Linus Torvalds (just for illustration purposes (psyched, I'm really enjoying this(I'm not even making the turn around to illustrate the analogy to Wikipedia any further)))? I guess deletion also serves to keep editors in check, if they don't meet quality standards. It's simply more difficult to delete a deletion-privileged user who has also a number of contributions under the belt. This is similar to police corruption, or shirky's principle.
        thriftwy 9y ago
        No, there are no good reasons for sites to be blocked on the net. Also no reason for valid articles to be deleted from Wikipedia. I am against corruption and this is awful. Nobody should be reasoning this.
        posterboy 9y ago
        if you try to censor the censors you can only loose. corolarily, it would be nice if there were no censors.
  - posterboy 9y ago
    Why does HN have a downvote button (for prolific users with karma>500, anyways? (and why doesn't facebook?)).
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      I don't know (do you?) , and btw, HN as social community is barely functioning. Just look at all the people with throwaway accounts, and the dang in shining armour.
    - syrrim 9y ago
      For sorting comments on usefulness. Of 10 toplevel replies to a post, which should be displayed first? The highest-voted/most-recent one. Also spam.
      - posterboy 9y ago
        spam, is exactly the problem?
skybrian 9y ago
Isn't chasing down obscure sources what researchers do? Out of print books can often be found in libraries. College libraries also often have subscriptions allowing paywalls to be bypassed. It's unlikely most people would do these things just for fun, but allowing citations that can be verified using ordinary research methods seems pretty reasonable.
astrodev 9y ago
You seem to think that the (speedy) deletion criteria are much more liberal than they actually are. In fact, they are very narrow, so that only "obvious commercial spam" or otherwise obviously inappropriate articles get deleted in this way. "We could not verify this fact" is not a valid reason for deletion, let alone speedy deletion. The requirement is verifiability (it must be possible to verify this fact using reliable sources), not verification (it's OK if the sources are not immediately available). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_...)
- thriftwy 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-band https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-band They don't just speedy delete articles about music groups, they have a dedicated template for it. As per CSD A7. I don't see why a page about music group would be "obviously inappropriate". Maybe you will care to explain?
  - posterboy 9y ago
    Because there is usually no or low encyclopedic content, on the one hand, Discogs already exists for that, and because every fan after comming home from a concert checking wikipedia will have the genius idea to set a memorial for the idol, amounting to scribling "Metallica" in a stall. I know, because I've done both.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      You lost me here. I consider any art sacred. I don't see why would not there be an article for any artist that recorded anything. How about "2013 Richmond Raiders season"? Apparently this is more encyclopedic? There are no specialized sites for this? I would say you did not carry your point across.
      - posterboy 9y ago
        I guess that's a complex topic to answer. Assume that the time and space complexity of maintanance increases with each article, because not every article is perfect. Then you need a good reason to increase that complexity. > How about "2013 Richmond Raiders season"? Apparently this is more encyclopedic? There are no specialized sites for this? No I'm not, I just choose to ignore sportsfandom.

ghaff 9y ago

The correlation between notability and verifiability certainly starts to break down quickly once you get past easily accessible, well-known, and well-regarded sources. No one is going to chase down paper copies of obscure magazines, newspapers, or out-of-print books to verify some statement, especially if it's not highly questionable for some reason. The system does kinda work because most people aren't outright inventing fake references to game the system.

thriftwy 9y ago
What would be your criteria for the system failing to work? What can go visibly wrong if Wikipedia would cover different subset of obscure topics than it does currently? We're not talking about faking facts in well-visited articles, since a) that's not what is being discussed, and b) that has been done anyway, getting into news multiple times.
- ghaff 9y ago
  To me, "failing to work" would mean not really usable across a wide range of domains. I can find plenty to fault with Wikipedia including the fact that it tilts further in the deletionist direction than would be my personal choice. A failure to include a lot more articles on relatively obscure topics may be a shortcoming but it probably doesn't, at the end of the day, make Wikipedia a lot less useful for the typical person.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Is Wikipedia useful today? Absolutely. Does deletionism sometimes leads to embarrassing results? As witnessed, it does. Would less deletionism lead to Wikipedia becoming "not really usable across a wide range of domains"? I can't see how it would, neither could you. So I would argue that Wikipedia deletion policy is considerably suboptimal.
    - posterboy 9y ago
      Wikipedia is like a subgraph of the internet. Are there good reasons for certain sites to be blocked on the net? Yes? Should I just be allowed to call you a stupid plucktwit as if I was f'in Linus Torvalds (just for illustration purposes (psyched, I'm really enjoying this(I'm not even making the turn around to illustrate the analogy to Wikipedia any further)))? I guess deletion also serves to keep editors in check, if they don't meet quality standards. It's simply more difficult to delete a deletion-privileged user who has also a number of contributions under the belt. This is similar to police corruption, or shirky's principle.
      - thriftwy 9y ago
        No, there are no good reasons for sites to be blocked on the net. Also no reason for valid articles to be deleted from Wikipedia. I am against corruption and this is awful. Nobody should be reasoning this.
        posterboy 9y ago
        if you try to censor the censors you can only loose. corolarily, it would be nice if there were no censors.
- posterboy 9y ago
  Why does HN have a downvote button (for prolific users with karma>500, anyways? (and why doesn't facebook?)).
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    I don't know (do you?) , and btw, HN as social community is barely functioning. Just look at all the people with throwaway accounts, and the dang in shining armour.
  - syrrim 9y ago
    For sorting comments on usefulness. Of 10 toplevel replies to a post, which should be displayed first? The highest-voted/most-recent one. Also spam.
    - posterboy 9y ago
      spam, is exactly the problem?

skybrian 9y ago

Isn't chasing down obscure sources what researchers do? Out of print books can often be found in libraries. College libraries also often have subscriptions allowing paywalls to be bypassed. It's unlikely most people would do these things just for fun, but allowing citations that can be verified using ordinary research methods seems pretty reasonable.

astrodev 9y ago

You seem to think that the (speedy) deletion criteria are much more liberal than they actually are. In fact, they are very narrow, so that only "obvious commercial spam" or otherwise obviously inappropriate articles get deleted in this way. "We could not verify this fact" is not a valid reason for deletion, let alone speedy deletion. The requirement is verifiability (it must be possible to verify this fact using reliable sources), not verification (it's OK if the sources are not immediately available). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_...)

thriftwy 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-band https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-band They don't just speedy delete articles about music groups, they have a dedicated template for it. As per CSD A7. I don't see why a page about music group would be "obviously inappropriate". Maybe you will care to explain?
- posterboy 9y ago
  Because there is usually no or low encyclopedic content, on the one hand, Discogs already exists for that, and because every fan after comming home from a concert checking wikipedia will have the genius idea to set a memorial for the idol, amounting to scribling "Metallica" in a stall. I know, because I've done both.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    You lost me here. I consider any art sacred. I don't see why would not there be an article for any artist that recorded anything. How about "2013 Richmond Raiders season"? Apparently this is more encyclopedic? There are no specialized sites for this? I would say you did not carry your point across.
    - posterboy 9y ago
      I guess that's a complex topic to answer. Assume that the time and space complexity of maintanance increases with each article, because not every article is perfect. Then you need a good reason to increase that complexity. > How about "2013 Richmond Raiders season"? Apparently this is more encyclopedic? There are no specialized sites for this? No I'm not, I just choose to ignore sportsfandom.